VE.Bus BMS and Multiplus, remote switch off off Multiplus

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question

bathnm asked Aug 22, '20

VE.Bus BMS and Multiplus, remote switch off off Multiplus

Good afternoon,

Is there any configuration or assistant that can be applied that will allow for a remote switch off of the MultiPlus when used with the VE.Bus BMS and Cerbo GX. I know that in this configuration a DMC will allow this to happen, but I really do not want yet another panel to install (cost and space). I had hopped that a switch between the Left and Middle pins of the remote switch on the main board would work, but no luck. I am sure at some stage the ability to turn the inverter on and off through the Cerbo will be available, just as it is when no VE.Bus BMS is used.

My reason for asking is that when I leave the boat the MultiPlus, even with AES applied has been the biggest parasitic load causing a drain of 158Ah in just a week. Having turned the Multiplus off at the switch on the front the parasitic load has dropped to just under 0.2A. With the Multiplus on and in ~AES Search mode the system was drawing between .4A and .8A, occasionally going as high as 1.2A.

OK, I know I can turn the inverter off on the front panel, but that is a pain due to it's location.

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Charger cerbo gx Venus OS ve.bus bms

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Matthias Lange - DE answered · Aug 22, 2020 at 02:55 PM

You should be able to switch the Multi into "charger-only" with the right and middle terminal.
As long as no shore power is connected the Multi will be off.

If that is not working you can install the "safety switch assistant" and connect a switch to a AUX or temp.sense input.

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bathnm commented · Aug 22, 2020 at 07:43 PM

Matthias,

Thank you for the solutions. Switching to charger-only mode, via both methods, drops the current draw a little, but it is still 0.15A higher than the inverter and charger being off. It is such a shame that the ability to switch the inverter off just isn't available when you install a VE.bus BMS and do not have the DMC.

I just need to get my solar installed and then I will not worry so much.

Are there any plans to allow the Venus OS when a VE.Bus BMS exists to change the Multiplus mode and allow the shorting of the left and middle to turn the invert on?

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justmurph bathnm commented · Sep 07, 2020 at 10:42 PM

I have the same problem. I have no need for the addition functionality of the DMC and really don't want yet another panel, especially when I bought the Cerbo to do it all. Since discovering that you can't turn the inverter properly off with the remote switch, I've just been using the charger only mode as off. I hadn't realised it's still pulling 5W though, unit I read this!

So chalk me up as another person who would very much like to be able to turn his multi off and on with a switch.

I just had a look at the safety switch assistant, but it say that it cannot be used with any other assistants that switch the power of the device (eg. the BMS assistant) and also that it doesn't turn the device off, just the AC output.

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Matthias Lange - DE ♦ bathnm commented · Aug 22, 2020 at 08:05 PM

If I remember correctly I read somewhere that there is something planned but I can't find it at the moment.

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bathnm Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented · Sep 02, 2020 at 01:04 PM

Would someone from Victron be able to advise if there is something planed, or if the only way will be to purchase a DMC. I would hate to purchase a DMC and then find a short time later that I can actually control it via Venus OS.

Many Thanks

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jeroend bathnm commented · Sep 05, 2020 at 08:18 AM

For what it's worth; I am betting on some improvements to be made to the VE.Bus Smart Dongle in exactly this area. It has additional connections already too, markings included, but not documented/programmed features as of yet.

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bathnm jeroend commented · Sep 05, 2020 at 07:48 PM

just looked at a picture and there are 3 spare ports, maybe...... Just wish Victron would let us know.

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cpurchas commented · Oct 31, 2021 at 08:39 PM

Hello Matthias, it seems this is the only option to shut off the Multi when using this BMS. Can you please expand on how to use the right and middle terminal? Can you please explain exactly which terminals these are and how to do this? Thanks !

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2020-09-05T08:27:57Z

Paul B answered · Sep 05, 2020 at 08:27 AM

I had the same issue myself on site yesterday. the site has a VE BMS on it so the remote On/OFF will not work.

I could not remotley start the generator as some person had turn the system off via a emergency shutdown and thus the generator autostart feature was also disabled on the generator its self.

The battery was at a CRITICAL level like 8% left and the voltage was down to 23.8v the AC loads were 74 watts still and I could NOT turn the Inverter off remotely to stop the down-would draw, (not allowed as a VE-BMS is in use)

This is a VERY annoying restriction.

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Rob Fijn commented · Sep 05, 2020 at 01:29 PM

I agree this would be an important function to be possible. I have run into this same issue ones.

Regards, Rob

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bathnm commented · Sep 05, 2020 at 07:36 PM

Well the view is to get a DMC and use that to control the multi, turn it on / off / charge and set the AC input current. however this is expensive to purchase and then I have no place on the yacht to really install it. I suspect that the issue is not the Multi or the Cerbo/Venus OS, but the VE.Bus BMS and that to my knowledge has no ability to change the firmware remotely ;)

There has been hints that a fix might come, but no one from Victron or my supplier has been able to say definitively if they plan to fix or not. Victron come on please step up and let us know if there will ever be a fix or change to allow the Cerbo, VE.Bus BMS and Multi to play nicely together.

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Answer 2 · 2020-11-09T18:17:52Z

Simo Hassi answered · Nov 09, 2020 at 06:17 PM

I had the same problem but after reading Matthias' first reply above I connected the H terminals (see the Multi manual) through the key switch that controls 12V circuits in my boat and bingo!, Multi turns off and on even if I have VE.Bus BMS and its assistant installed. Now I can control the whole system by one key switch.

Obviously the instruction saying that remote control is not possible with VE.Bus BMS assistant means remote control via VRM but remote switch - actually a "local remote" - works fine.

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justmurph commented · Nov 09, 2020 at 08:22 PM

Just note that you're now switching between "on" and "charger only". In the "charger only" mode, it is still drawing some power (5 or 10W....I can't remember the exact number). If you were leaving the system for a period of time with no charge sources, or were critically low on power, you would want to turn it off at the main switch or isolate it. But I think for many peoples systems it's an acceptable (if not ideal) solution.

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bathnm justmurph commented · Nov 10, 2020 at 01:06 PM

I agree. It is a major limitation. The only option is to move to a smallBMS and 2-Wire assistant, that at least allows remote control via VenusOS as well as MQTT/ModBus. However that solution still leaves you with a MultiPlus/Quattro that has not fully shut down and still drawing that 5-10w, which will cause issues.

I find it very strange that the 2-Wire Assistant allows the remote control, but VE.BusBMS with no DMC cant also have teh same capability.

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Answer 3 · 2020-12-15T09:55:02Z

andrea-collecchia answered · Dec 15, 2020 at 09:55 AM

Has anyone solved this problem satisfactorily without necessarily having to install the panel? Thanks

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bathnm commented · Dec 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM

I have moved to a smallBMS and 2-wire BMS Assistant. Like all things there are tradeoffs...

With the smallBMS, when you select off in the VenusOS (Cerbo), the unit powers off, including the VE.Bus interface within the MultiPlus, meaning zero parasitic load. With the VE.Bus BMS, this won't happen as the VenusOS (Cerbo) will not allow you to switch off.

When mains disconnects, there is a small parasitic load as the MultiPlus VE.Bus interface stays powered. This is different to when the VE.Bus BMS is used as you get a complete shut down.

I am sure there are other differences, but with the smallBMS I am also able to use the VE-Bus Smart Dongle to also control the MultiPlus.

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andrea-collecchia bathnm commented · Dec 15, 2020 at 10:41 AM

Can I ask you what exactly did you buy and how did you connect it? Thanks

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Answer 4 · 2021-08-28T12:19:42Z

enodev answered · Aug 28, 2021 at 12:19 PM

I have just upgraded to Multiplus 12/1600/70 within existing installation with two 100ah lifepo batteries and VE.Bus BMS, and learned the painful and expensive way that Bluetooth Smart Dongle will not allow power off of the inverter when VE.Bus BMS assistant is loaded.

From the wording in the Victron Connect iOS app, it seems that in the past neither the operation mode (charger, inverter, off), nor the AC input current limit were allowed to be changed when BMS assistant is installed in the multiplus.

Yet with the latest iOS version of the Victron Connect app, the AC input current limit actually can be changed. Also with the latest firmware the Smart Bluetooth VE.bus dongle can actually be part of smart network controlling the MPPT charger, despite the documentation still saying the opposite.

so there is hope.

Please anybody listening at Victron, add the ability to remotely power off and on the Multiplus even with VE.Bus BMS. If it is possible via cabled control panel, it must be possible via software as well…

thanks,

Martin

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Answer 5 · 2021-08-28T17:29:38Z

bathnm answered · Aug 28, 2021 at 05:29 PM

This has been like this since the VE.Bus BMS was released many years ago. If it was an easy fix, it would have been done by now. If you read the forum posts it might get fixed one day, but is unclear if it would be firmware only or also need different hardware. I have done much investigation as I too ran into the same issue. I solved it be changing the BMS I used, you could go with a mini BMS or the Lynx Smart BMS.

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Answer 6 · 2022-12-29T12:19:59Z

laurmtb answered · Dec 29, 2022 at 12:19 PM

I think the VE.Bus BMS V2 is the solution for having both communication with a GX device and remote control of Inverter/Chargers in the same time.

I'm getting the BMS V2 as my first BMS but for those who have the old BMS, instead of buying a DMC just for on/off control, I would rather upgrade to BMS V2.

"Communication with remote devices A GX device (such as a Cerbo GX), Digital Multi Control (DMC) panel or a VE.Bus Smart dongle (including any combination) can be connected to the BMS via the 'Remote panel' port. These accessories can all be used in combination with the BMS to remotely control the VE.Bus Inverter or inverter/charger switch state (on/off/charger-only)."

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Answer 7 · 2023-01-01T15:29:35Z

enodev answered · Jan 01, 2023 at 03:29 PM

I can confirm that upgrading my system to VE.BUS BMS v2 allows switching the Multiplus to ON/OFF/ChargerOnly remotely via Bluetooth and Victron Connect app and Smart Dongle.

Works great and saves 14W of idle Multiplus consumption...

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aescott1985 commented · Aug 08, 2023 at 02:30 PM

Could you tell me how you did it? Could you send me a screenshot? Thanks in advance.

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enodev aescott1985 commented · Aug 10, 2023 at 10:21 AM

What exactly do you need help with? I simply swapped the old VE.BUS BMS with a new one and then shut everything off, and on again. After the power down and power up again the VictronConnect app recognised that it can power off the Multiplus via bluetooth dongle.

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Answer 8 · 2023-03-10T19:20:58Z

brewgyver answered · Mar 10, 2023 at 07:20 PM

I recently purchased two 12/200 Lithium smart, SmartBattery protect 220s, VE.bus BMS V2, and also got talked into changing out a perfectly good CCGX for the Cerbo GX. I redilly admit I went along with it due to the Touch70 being so pretty, but IF I had known that I would have lost the ability to switch the Multi at the GX panel, I would have reconsidered the choice of BMS. My Multi resides under the floor of the boat, and it's a serious PITA to pull up floor panels just to switch it to Charge Only or off.

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bathnm commented · Mar 10, 2023 at 07:29 PM

@brewgyver what makes yous ay that you can not control the MultiPlus via the Cerbo GX when a VE.bus BMS v2 is in the system. I personally do not have one, but everything I have read, including statements in this forum say it works.

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brewgyver bathnm commented · Dec 14, 2023 at 04:09 PM

What "makes me say" that is the Cerbo itself. The Cerbo will display the current operating switch setting in the Switch option on the MultiPlus screen. If you push it, a message pops up stating "This setting is disabled when a VE.Bus BMS is connected." Also there are MANY posts in this forum with the same complaint, not to mention the rather definitive statement from VE Support that it is not possible. I haven't found ANY that say it works, as you claim. Please link to such a post, as I would really like to have this function without adding yet another component to this already busy system.

It is also impossible to update firmware with the VE.Bus BMS connected, you have to temporarily disconnect the RJ45 from the VE.Bus BMS to initiate firmware update. So in order to switch operating modes, or turn off the Multi, I have to either purchase and install the Digital Multi Control or, according to Enodev's post above, add the Smart Dongle. This is the way I'm going, simply because I won't have to fish yet another ethernet cable to connect a DMC.

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Answer 9 · 2023-08-08T20:13:57Z

justmurph answered · Aug 08, 2023 at 08:13 PM

Two hot tips for anyone using the remote terminals to turn their multi off (charger only mode).

1. You can't upgrade the firmware when the remote switch is in the charger only position. It will fail every time, no matter which way you try. This took a very long and ver frustrating time to figure out. Disconnect the switch and try again.

2. If you upgrade to the VE Bus BMS2, likewise! Disconnect the remote switch as you can't use this any more. If you don't the multi will give an error and won't run.

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brewgyver commented · Dec 14, 2023 at 04:10 PM

Thank you VERY much for this info! I just encountered this myself, update failed with the panel operating switch set to charge only. VE should add this note to the string of other warnings that require acknowledgement in the firmware update procedure.

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