Issues Charging Batteries from Orion Smart & SmartSolar

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angus-wauchope asked Nov 11, '23

Issues Charging Batteries from Orion Smart & SmartSolar

I have a recently installed victron system in my Citroen Relay 2021 but have come across some issues with charging in last few days.

Our problem was noticed when battery protect started regularly disconnecting loads due to E3 (under voltage) at any SOC below 85%. It seems a cause of this is Orion and Solar don't seem to be sending much if any charge to the leisure Batteries.

Despite driving multiple hours in sunny conditions in Spain both the Orion and Solar stay in absorption (we are on 70% battery) or float despite having low battery SOC.

I've tested the starter battery and orion with the multimeter and with engine off all values are aligned. However with the engine on I see around a 0.5 drop on V between battery and input ports. I've tested resistance across fuses and that doesn't seem to be the issue.

I'm a bit clueless as to what to do to check the solar though.

My only thoughts at the moment are the default settings in the victron app aren't correct for the alternator / Citroen relay Van??

Any advice or help on this from the community would be massively appreciated

Thanks

Gus

battery charging MPPT SmartSolar Battery Protect orion smart

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Answer 1 · 2023-11-11T19:36:06Z

pwfarnell answered · Nov 11, 2023 at 07:36 PM

Some details of you system, what type of batteries, Orion, MPPT and where are you getting the SOC from. When charging what voltage do the batteries get up to according to the MPPT, Orion and the BMS or shunt. Screenshots of your settings and the chargers working may help to diagnose. Check all your connections are tight and crimps are tight. How did you size your cables to avoid voltage drop. Do you have the resettable breaker like shown below, these often do not work very well and cause voltage loss.

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angus-wauchope commented · Nov 13, 2023 at 08:13 AM

Hi - Thanks for your response.

So I've collected some data on the system for you. Sorry had to wait a day so I could get a screenshot of the solar charger working.

Battery Type - TN Power AGM 100Ah - x2

DC-DC Orion TR Smart 12/12 - 30A isolated

Smart Solar MPPT 100/20

I get my SOC readings from a Smart Shunt 500A/50mV

I also have a Phoenix 12 / 500 pure sinewave inverter

I use this system to power the 230V plugs (only for charging of devices, no heavy use) then also 12v loads (fridge, LED lights, PC fans and water pump)

I don't use the breakable charger. All Fuses and wire sizes were recommended to me by my supplier who sold me the full Victron system along with the wiring diagram.

I've checked connections and also tested with the multimeter at various points along the system and struggled to find any significant resistance or unexpected voltage drop.

I'll just attach some screenshots on a separate comment from my phone.

Massive thanks in advance if you could help us make any sense of all this and try to get any improvements in the system.

Cheers

Angus

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angus-wauchope angus-wauchope commented · Nov 13, 2023 at 08:18 AM

Battery protect showing E3: Under Voltage

Battery protect settings

Orion settings

Orion Engine Shutdown Settings

Orion Voltage Lockout Settings

MPPT settings

Smart Shunt Settings

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Answer 2 · 2023-11-13T08:25:20Z

angus-wauchope answered · Nov 13, 2023 at 08:25 AM

Orion charging on Absorption a couple of minutes after the engine was turned on. Battery SOC 77%

Screenshot showing all the battery voltages when just the Orion is charging.

MPPT charging with the engine off. It is morning, but there is still full sun on the panels at the moment.

History of Solar last few days (all at 70-80% battery and in sunny conditions in Spain).

Screenshot showing battery voltages when just the solar is charging.

Again. Massive thanks in advance.

Angus

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Answer 3 · 2023-11-13T11:01:04Z

pwfarnell answered · Nov 13, 2023 at 11:01 AM

I have had a look through everything and your settings appear to be mostly OK as far as I can tell. The only thing that I would change is on the SmartShunt I would increase the charged voltage from 13.8V to 14.2V as this will make sure that the batteries are truly in absorption phase before the SmartShunt goes back to 100%.

Before going further, do you get your batteries back up to 100% daily or frequently rather than continually running them at less than 100% for long periods. If you are not getting them to 100% frequently then they will slowly age and reduce in capacity. This is complicated because the SmartShunt may be going to 100% before it is full.

A second question, have you put these devices onto a Smart Network so that the SmartShunt shares the battery voltage and current. It appears not but it is worth confirming.

A third question is why the absorption is set to 14.6V on the Orion and 14.4V on the MPPT although both are within the recommended range, it may be less stressful for the battery to have the Orion also set at 14.4V as that is in the middle of the 14.2 to 14.6V range.

From the data you have supplied, when the engine is running the Orion is kicking in and charging, but it is charging at well below its rated output despite the low battery. It is hard to completely be sure what is happening. The Orion is measuring 14.6V at its output, the MPPT 14.56V and the battery protect 14.56V but the SmartShunt is measuring only 13.12V. I do not know how these are all wired or if the SmartShunt voltage is wrong. If you have everything connected to a bus bar then there may be a high resistance between the busbar and the domestic battery which is fooling the chargers that the battery is at a higher voltage so that they are not getting charged fully. You need to check this with your multimeter to see if when the Orion is running, are the domestic batteries at the battery terminals actually getting up to 14.5 to 14.6V. If they are then your SmartShunt is reading too low voltage and the SmartShunt positive sense wire will need checking.

When the MPPT is running there is a lot more conflicting information, the output of the MPPT is only 9.71V but the SmartShunt reads higher and the Battery Protect is obviously below 11.5V but not known. In this case, I believe that this shows you have a high resistance between the battery and the bus bar, the battery voltage is OK but due to the high resistance it can not provide enough current to the bus bar to meet the load demand and there is not enough solar to provide this either so the voltage on the bus bar falls very low. Again, you could check this with your multimeter.

Therefore, in conclusion, the evidence points towards a high resistance between you domestic busbar and your battery terminals so check for voltages at the battery and busbars and voltage drop in this area and check all fuses, isolators, cable crimps, terminals, bolts etc and you may find something loose or not working.

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kevgermany ♦♦ commented · Nov 13, 2023 at 02:39 PM

@Angus Wauchope

As well as @pwfarnell comments...

From what the MPPT shows in the last shot, I think there's a significant DC load dropping the voltage. As there's only 2A coming from the MPPT, significant isn't very much. Looks as if low winter sun is also reducing output a lot.

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angus-wauchope commented · Nov 14, 2023 at 01:16 PM

Hi Both - Massive thanks for getting back to me on this.

I've altered the smart shunt charged voltage setting and will monitor for any impact in the coming days. I'll also have a look into setting up a amsart network. Thanks for this advice.

Re getting batteries to 100%. We have been struggling on this. There was no problem maintaining 100% while in the UK during the summer off Orion and MPPT but now we are away on the road we have only been able to get up to 100% once in the last fortnight despite driving most days and regular sun. This did occur after I altered engine shiutdown and lockout settings on the Orion as it previously wasn't kicking in when the engine was on. So getting to 100% is an issue, but one I'm struggling to solve at the moment.

However - following your advice @pwfarnell i did find a loose connection on the positive busbar (I have both positvbe and negative busbars). Tighteneing this up and turning the engine on has resulted in the battery voltage readings more or less aligning. So would I be right in saying that this issue is the cause for both issues - laggard charging and inability to use 12V due to smart protect sensing under voltage regardless of what the SmartShunt SOC reads?

I have a 3 hour drive ahead of me this evening so hopefully this should get the battery charged back up and resync the Shunt - its still showing quite small current flow with Orion running but hopefully this is temporary.

Many Thanks

Angus

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pwfarnell angus-wauchope commented · Nov 14, 2023 at 01:33 PM

Angus, from the data you provided the loose connection will have been causing both poor charging as it was limiting power going into the battery and the 12V cutting out as it also limited the power leaving the battery so you should be sorted now.

Hopefully you will now get to the point where you can recharge to 100% and no lasting damage to the batteries has occurred. You should see the voltage get to 14.4V or more and the current reduce to 3A or so but it may take 6 hours of charging to get right down this low. The best advice if you are driving for part of a day is to do the travelling in the morning when the batteries will take in the most current from the Orion and then the lower power solar can finish off the charge when the batteries are nearly full.

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