question

Sarah avatar image
Sarah asked

Smart Buck Boost (now Orion XS 12/12-50)

Does anybody have any gossip on the fabled new ‘Smart Buck Boost’ that has been mentioned in the latest VictronConnect beta release notes ???

orion-tr smartorion dc-dcdc-dc chargerorion xssmart buckboost
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jesus69 avatar image jesus69 commented ·

Do we know what other sizes will be available for the 12/12 version?

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18 Answers
Russell Brown avatar image
Russell Brown answered ·
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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·
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percuriam2718 avatar image percuriam2718 commented ·
It looks like it does not support VE.Smart Networking? Any word on plans to add that in the future?
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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ percuriam2718 commented ·
Support is planned
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bezda avatar image
bezda answered ·

I'm wondering if there's 24-24V version planned

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djsmiley avatar image djsmiley commented ·

Yes, next year

378032380-10161539801390774-7026883682289374010-n.jpg

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engmarc avatar image engmarc djsmiley commented ·
Thanks for the info.

I'm in no rush so can wait for it to stabilize and be released.

I've got the Ekrano and Quattro and three smart shunts so connect up so the 12-24 dc-dc is back burner.

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offgridshopeu avatar image
offgridshopeu answered ·

Looks like it will be available from beginning of December ;-)

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badwolf avatar image
badwolf answered ·

Is it really worth double the price of the 5 year old kisae dmt120? Only benefit i see is to be able to connect it to cerbo/dvcc.

Will it derate less than an orion? I don’t see a heat sink. With fans my orions ran 330w/10% below rated.

I had such high hopes for this.

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Russell Brown avatar image Russell Brown commented ·
I believe unlike the Orion the new Smart Buck Boost is 98.5% efficient so a lot less heat generated compared to the Orions
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Hi @BadWolf,

It is a completely different design to the existing range. The heatsink comes from an aluminium PCB, it is integrated.

While being half the size of the 30A Orion, produces far less heat, and will not derate as much.

Keep your hopes high, at least until you can see the product for yourself, it’s impressive.

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badwolf avatar image badwolf Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)

My main disappointment is the output being only 700w. I’m looking for a 1,500w output, or above with a single victron device

Having a ford transit with dual 250a alternators(factory option) and a 175amp connection point, i would still need three smart buck boost to max out the potential. (120a sterling would be more cost effective)

I returned my three Orions(limited by space), because of the how much they derated even with fans and the fact that they don’t talk to cerbo. (Even though cerbo will pair with them over bluetooth)

Per the data sheet, the derate improvement's over the orions was needed.

Orion 3% vs smart buck 1.5% per 1C

With out external fans my 3 orions were derating 15%. I don’t see an external heat sink so will adding fan help the smart buck boost?

If not i would expect a 7.5% derate in the same setup. ~650w output, which took roughly two 360w orions

Presale sites are listing the 50A smart buck at ~$425.

At that price point i could get two Kisae DMT1250(out for 5 years), which would allow me to also add 2x500w portable solar panels while parked and have double the output while driving.

So is being able to use DVCC on the smart buck boost with the rest of my system worth double the price of the Kisae?



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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ badwolf commented ·

The heatsink is not visible, but is it still there as the rear radiant part of the PCB.

Extra airflow along the back of the unit will help maintain full output for longer, there is a gap in the top, bottom and sides of the housing to allow it.

But exactly how much depends a lot on the ambient temperature and natural airflow of the install location.

Many units installed in a small area circulated with fans but without new fresh air and hot air outflow will not help as much.

Larger models to be available in the future, however given the ease of paralleling these, priority will first be given to alternative voltage models.

For me, system integration is one of the reasons I chose Victron over other options. Exactly how much that is worth, among other things, will be personal.

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marv2097 avatar image marv2097 Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Great to see progress in the DC-DC chargers. Can you share what alternative voltage models are in the pipeline?
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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ marv2097 commented ·
I guess the obvious would be 12V to 24V, 24V to 12V and 24V to 24V.

Just like the current Orion-Tr Smart lineup.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·
Exactly.
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marv2097 avatar image marv2097 Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Thanks, so any sign of a 12-48?

Stirling has recently update its line of B2B chargers and the 12-48 1500w unit looks good and has Bi-directional charging etc. As with all previous sterling B2Bs the user 'interface' is pretty poor and there are no smart features to speak of.

It would be great if Victon had a product in this space as it would tie in nicely with the 48v multi, smart solar and GX that a lot of people are using now in liveaboards, canal boats and even vans/RVs.

With the crazy costs of 48v alternators 48v battery systems often more cost effective with cheaper components and reduced cabling costs etc.

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fhorn avatar image fhorn marv2097 commented ·
A 12 to 48 V at 10 A would be useful for charging power stations through their DC solar input
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rheinskipper avatar image rheinskipper commented ·
For me it is not only system integration and easy to use bluetooth connection that Victron stands for. It is the way I can setup different battery profiles very accurately and switch between them quickly via the app.

I do not want to stress my lithium batteries by charging them up to 100% SOC all the time. So I created a profile with 13.45V absorption and 13.28V float. This will charge my batteries to about 80% SOC. And I can easily switch to another profile with 14.2V absorption if I occasionally need full capacity.
This type of flexibility and usability I can only find on Victron chargers.

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rheinskipper avatar image
rheinskipper answered ·

VictronConnect changelog v5.98 says: "Smart BuckBoost: Add initial support"

But I cannot find it in the demo section.

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There is no demo yet, just initial support for the device itself. The demo will be added shortly.
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rheinskipper avatar image
rheinskipper answered ·

I have been waiting for years for a DC-DC-Charger like this. Now I am very excited to get one soon.

But there is one thing that I am missing in the specs: Bidirectional charging to maintain the starter battery when the engine is not running.

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Hi @RheinSkipper,

The good news is that the hardware supports bidirectional charging.

The not-so-good news is that this will not be supported initially, and there is no time frame for adding it.

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badwolf avatar image badwolf commented ·
If you have a 12/24v multiplus, it supports a trickle charge upto 4A. I have it on my setup, and you just need the pos wire ran.
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djsmiley avatar image
djsmiley answered ·

I'm wondering if the BT or VeDirect can be used in the future to add additional temperature sensors to limit the current. 50A might be on the high side on smaller alternators. Having an option to add a temperature sensor installed on the alternator would be a great option, so the Buckboost can throttle based on the alternator temperature.
That would allow 50A charge on smaller alternators, without risk of overloading them, if there is additional load (thus heat) the Buckboost will lower its amps untill the temp is safe to ramp up again...

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Hi @DJSmiley,

The developers are looking into options for temperature sensing and control for this product, including considering a new VE.Direct temperature sensor.

Nothing is confirmed yet, but all is possible.

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djsmiley avatar image djsmiley Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

That would be a great addition. A VE.Direct or BT temperature sensor with an optional external second sensor would solve a lot of issues: Temperature sharing in the VE.Network (low temp protection) and an optional external sensor which can be configured as 'second sensor' or 'alternator sensor' would make it a very flexible setup.
Setting a max charge of eg 30A in the buckboost, or override tot 50a based on available temp sensor or so.
Fyi: This alternator temperature sensing/current adjust is also available in the Rapid LBR 60 Ladebooster from the german brand WCS.

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offgridshopeu avatar image offgridshopeu Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Would be great to get temp sensing without blocking the VE.Direct port for communication with the GX device (and DVCC) - maybe a GX temp sensor can be used for temp control with data delivered via VE.Direct from the GX device?


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rheinskipper avatar image rheinskipper commented ·

+1
VERY good point.

In the early years I burnt out a lot of alternators before fully understanding the problem. A 60A charger was too much for 140A stock alternator. I finally solved the problem by installing an additional cooling fan in front of the alternator.

Today we all know what is going on thanks to Victron´s video:
https://youtu.be/jgoIocPgOug

A higher amp rating on your alternator might not improve the situation. Todays 200A+ car alternators are made for regenerative braking. So they can only produce high power for a very short time.

A bluetooth wireless temp sensor would be easy to install on the alternator. As Victron obviously is aware of the problem, there is hope that they will bring a temp sensor some day.

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rheinskipper avatar image rheinskipper rheinskipper commented ·
Another possible solution could be an RPM sensor (bluetooth OBD dongle) interfaced to the Smart Buck Boost. This could be super easy installed and a DC-DC charger that lowers amps on low engine RPM will not damage the alternator.
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michaeld avatar image
michaeld answered ·

This looks like an absolute game changer. DVCC implying direct control by BMS (batteries full, under temperature, reduce current for balancing etc)? Time to order some lithiums! Top work Victron team!

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Just to hold the horses, DVCC support is planned, but will require a firmware update.
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michaeld avatar image michaeld Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
:) I'll be waiting for warmer weather anyway. Still very exciting!
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nebulight avatar image
nebulight answered ·

This is the finally piece of the puzzle for managed batteries if dvcc can be implemented. I have a full Victron setup with can controlled battery with a multiplus and mppts from Victron which are both directly managed by the BMS. I have “another brand” dc-dc that is simply on-off.

I saw @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ’s comment about dvcc coming soon, but I’d really like to know BEFORE a purchase that the smart buck boost will be controlled the same as the multi and mppt. It will slow down the charge current and be totally controlled by the BMS. Also receives the temp from the bms.

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Hi @nebulight,

I am really, really reluctant to say exactly how it is going to work before I have seen it working.

I have every reason to think that it will be a full class DVCC compatible product with future firmware updates. I spoke with the engineers last week at the launch and they are aware of the urgency to get those features.

The control and integration that you're asking for is one of the key reasons for this new model, as well as the significantly improved efficiency.

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nebulight avatar image nebulight Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
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remcomeeder avatar image
remcomeeder answered ·

This unit looks just like what I wanted. Will VE Smart networking be a future addition as well? I have a smart battery sense and a smart shunt in the mix so it would be great to have it all integrated and talking to eachother.

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Nothing to confirm yet, but it has the necessary hardware.
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cstenger avatar image cstenger Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Especially using a SmartSense at the Starter Battery for correct voltage readings will be essential to maintain the desired current output.


Wrong output voltage readings can be ‘compensated‘ by adjusting the tail current, so the Orion doesn’t switch to Float way too early, like they now do. Though the then still too early Absorption phase state is kinda odd.

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rheinskipper avatar image
rheinskipper answered ·

Was the name changed to Orion XS? Why?

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Hi @RheinSkipper,

Yes indeed,

The name is now 'Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC battery charger'

Orion - this is our range of DC to DC chargers, so this is where this product belongs.

XS - this is a new suffix to indicate the new power electronics design and manufacturing process that is significantly smaller, and more efficient that the other Orion models.

'DC-DC battery charger' - this was added to help people who might be new to Victron and not know what the 'Orion' range refers to.

The 'smart buck boost' was the internal name before it was reconsidered for the wider market. Not everyone is going to be familiar with what a buck boost is, so this should hopefully make it easier to understand.

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rheinskipper avatar image rheinskipper Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Thanks for explaining this new terminology.

This sounds to me that there may be more XS devices in the pipeline. I could imagine a Multi Plus XS ;)

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curromoraira avatar image
curromoraira answered ·

Hello @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) .

Can you tell us if there will be an Isolated version of the Victron Orión XS 12/12-50?

Any estimated time frame?

I am designing my Victron system for my Van, already buying components, and would make a big difference if you could give us some info about 12V Isolated version.

Thank you in advance

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Hi @CurroMoraira,


There is demand for an isolated version, so very likely in the long run.

However there is more immediate plans for alternative voltage versions first.

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jmw123 avatar image jmw123 Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
There is so much demand for isolated in Australia. Is there a way to instal a non isolated with an isolated configuration in anyway?
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Justin Cook avatar image Justin Cook ♦♦ jmw123 commented ·

Not possible, unfortunately. You can install an isolated unit in a non-isolated setup, but you cannot install a non-isolated unit in an isolated setup. Non-isolated DC-DC chargers require a common negative return path between the two battery banks, there is no way around this.

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jmw123 avatar image jmw123 Justin Cook ♦♦ commented ·
Thanks Justin. I wonder how much the 12/12/30 isolated sales slow while awaiting the new 50.


Excited for when it comes. Thanks all

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granada avatar image granada Justin Cook ♦♦ commented ·

I believe it is possible, yes, if I understand your question... Linking a non isolated model together with an isolated model will not be possible, but if you remove the old ISOLATED model installed in your system and exchange it for this new NON ISOLATED model I believe it is possible. In the case of the negative input wire and the negative output wire that were separate before, now you will join them and connect them together as one by connecting to the common "-" of the new Orion XS.

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Justin Cook avatar image Justin Cook ♦♦ granada commented ·
...but then you no longer have an isolated setup, because you've now established a common negative return path between your battery banks. So, again, not possible to install a non-isolated charger in an isolated setup.
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curromoraira avatar image curromoraira Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

hi again @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)

We last spoke in December.

Do you have any news about an isolated version coming out? (12v)

Do you think it might happen this 2024?

Thanks in advance once again

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pau1phi11ips avatar image pau1phi11ips commented ·
Curious why you want an Isolated system in your van?

A non-isolated negative works perfectly fine in my 12V van with 24V LiFePO4 leisure system.

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Andrew Ford avatar image Andrew Ford pau1phi11ips commented ·
You need an isolated system when there is no shared negative/ground available.

For example, in a caravan or camper trailer. You need to run independent negatives. One to the alternator/starter system and another to the deep cycle/house system.

Kind of a huge deal.

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Sarah avatar image
Sarah answered ·

This is fantastic news! Thank-you Victron and the team. DVCC and integration with the Cerbo will be a game changer for me.

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cfreak avatar image
cfreak answered ·

Please make a 12/48 and perhaps even 24/48 version of this!

The offgrid vanlife builds in Europe usually run on 12v alternaters but would greatly benefit from a 48v system. On Mercedes Sprinters with secondary alternator (48V 5kW) this would be a nice failback system (in case the alternator dies).

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Hi @cfreak,

The 24V versions will come first, though the R&D team is aware of the demand for a 48V model, it might be some time.

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engmarc avatar image engmarc Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Nice to know, I'm on a MB Sprinter with 12v and a 24v alternator charging both the sprinter battery and the house batteries at 24v. I want the Orion DC-DC to bleed off any unneeded current to the sprinter battery to help charge the larger house battery banks.

I can wait though so get it right and when it comes out will hopefully be ready for it.

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jmw123 avatar image
jmw123 answered ·

Will this come in an isolated version?

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Justin Cook avatar image Justin Cook ♦♦ commented ·
Look up ^^^ about 4 comments.
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cstenger avatar image
cstenger answered ·

Product backorder continues and becoming worse, shops postponed dates to end of April, even beginning of May.

I need that thingy prior to the Abenteuer & Allrad!

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Hi @cstenger,

I am seeing backorder fulfilment shipments for Orion XS getting shipping out every week now for previously entered orders. So everyone that has already submitted an order should receive in the next 5 weeks at the latest, and likely sooner depending on when they ordered.

New orders submitted today will go straight into back order, and in most places around the world there is a 4-5 week expected delivery.

There is a significant ramping up of stock in 8 weeks (week 23), and large stock deliveries arriving every week thereafter, so that should allow us to catch up, get ahead and keep the product in stock as normal like the rest of the range.

The end is in sight.

If you need a single unit for demo, display or specific case, it might be worth it to make some calls to other suppliers in your area (or even outside) as they might be able to make a unit available to you earlier if they already placed pre-orders. Thousands are being shipped out.

My personal unit was delivered a couple of weeks ago (I use the same stock ordering system as everyone else), and I passed it on to another colleague who had a more immediate need for it.

cleanshot-2024-04-08-at-144445.jpg

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cstenger avatar image
cstenger answered ·

Delivery dates constantly being postponed at any retailer. WTF is going on here? Will it eventually be available?

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