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gnagflow avatar image
gnagflow asked

ESS System Phase Compensation Help

i installed 3x MP2 3000VA /48V. Updated Firmware to 2629474. made ve quick config, setted all settings. made the ess assistant in each MP. Now i try everything but the whole system acts like phase compensation is disabled although it is enabled. each inverter does only deliver so much power as required on the specific phase according to the grid meter. No idea why the compensation setting in the venus gx is not working. Please help!!

AC L1,L2,L3 is connected to MPNr.1-ACIN, MPNr2-ACIN, MPNr3-ACIN. The system is useless. If the electric car is plugged in on one phase with 7kW it only delivers max. 2.4kW from one inverter, if no other loads are switched on. If someone cooks on L2, i only get 2.4kW from the inverter on Nr.2.

I read all installation manuals, the training video on the Victron professional side, there is no hint what is wrong, looks like a software bug on the Venus gx!



MultiPlus Quattro Inverter ChargerESSgrid3 phase
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8 Answers
dayandnight avatar image
dayandnight answered ·

Hello @gnagflow,

I think to help you it is necessary to have more information about your system and your settings. For example, only to mention some major points. There are much more:

  • What grid-meter are you using?
  • What batteries did you connect?
  • What do you see in the device list?

and how did you set up the ESS-settings. Here is my settings which works fine for me.


Kind regards

DayAndNight


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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

Hi, thank you for help i appreciate it really!

- I use the EM24 grid meter (phase compensation with this grid meter worked easier as i had 5000VA Multiplus Inverter --> changed to 3x 3000VA)
- Batteries: 40kWh, Lion Pack consisting of 14S8600P configuration. No can bus BMS, I use two-wire control.
- on my device list i see: gateway, ve-bus-system, pv-inverter(solar edge), gridMeter, 2x temp sensor.
My ESS settings:





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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

I see a difference in our ESS settings, I have the possibility to switch on/off "phase compensation", you have something like "multiphase regulation" ..?

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dayandnight avatar image dayandnight gnagflow commented ·

Hello @gnagflow!

Sorry I forgot to mention. You use the standard EM24? I use the EM24 with Ethernet and this network grid meter needs a "release candidate" firmware version v2.60~26 - This firmware shows some menu entries different - so it might be difficulty to compare 1:1

Perhaps you try it with 2.60, too. But it is a release candidate, still not 100% tested and might cause other or additional problems. So you should first think about PROs and CONs for using a release candidate and get more infos about here in the community.

I don't have any experience for a system without a BMS. I know from my system that the pylontech BMS directs all necessary info directly into the system, as CVL (=Charge Voltage Limit), CCL (Carge Current Limit), DCL (=Discharge Current Limit), So I am wondering when not having a BMS if this might have an influence or not? But at all BMS should not influence of course the phase compensation.

What I have seen different to my system is that you have a minimum SOC of 0% (my value is 10%) and you use as mode "Optimized without BatteryLife" - I use "Optimized with BatteryLife"

Why do you go without Batterylife?

My "animation page" looks like this

What about your animation?

DayAndNight


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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow dayandnight commented ·

Hi thanks again for your answer.

- I don't think that the problem is at the grid meter, because before i installed 3x3000VA, i used 1x 5000VA with phase compensation and it worked. I get all data via RS485 directly to the GX.
- I don't use battery life, because i use recycled batteries which i only use within 20%-80% (so 0% SOC in the system means 20% real), in Winter time i switch it one time the MIN SOC to 20%. I don't want that the system changes my battery parameters.
- I used an external BMS which controls the inverter by a so called "two signal bms" setting. But i ordered already rec-bms which will connect with the can bus.
- unfortunately I cannot find any hint why this 3 phase system does not make a phase compensation, this is really bad.
- i see one difference in our ESS settings: you have "multiphase regulation" and i have "phase compensation" on the setting. I think this will has to do with the problem.

best regards,

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala gnagflow commented ·

Hi, what firmware is in your multiplus II?

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow Jan Zmrhala commented ·

2629474

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dayandnight avatar image dayandnight gnagflow commented ·

Hello @gnagflow,

I know to less to say the grid meter is the bad guy or not. In my system the grid meter appears in the device list, I couldn't find your EM24 in your device list as EM24. But I don't know if it should be there.


I had shortly a problem with my system. It was always in PASSTHRU mode and it was because the grid meter didn't communicate correctly any more with my GX-device and it was no longer visible in my device list. The solution was to switch EM24 off, which is equal to set a complete house out of grid power. Afterwards the ghost was back into the bottle and everything worked as normal and as all the time before.

I read below that the other firmware didn't help, either. I run out of options and ideas. I would be still interested how your animation looks like and would be happy if you could do a screenshot.

DayANdNight




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dayandnight avatar image dayandnight dayandnight commented ·

Hello @gnagflow,

I just realized that you did already a screenshot above. Here again to think about:


I can't see here a problem.

Your load is about 7,2 kW, your PV 4,6 kW so the rest is 2,6 kW and L1 buys 2,9 KW and L2 and L3 sells 2,7 kW which is in total buying 0,2 kW.

Where is the problem? Or did I misunderstood something completely.


DayAndNight

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow dayandnight commented ·

the problem is, the pv inverter makes 3x1.5kW, I am using about 7.2kW on L1. The difference that is required from the batteries is only taken from L1 inverter and inverter on L2 and on L3 are almost doing nothing. The problem appears, if i don't have a pv power and charge the electric vehicle. Than only the Multiplus on L1 is making 2.5-2.8kW, Multiplus on L2 and L3 are sleeping, and I have to buy the rest, about 4.5kW from the grid. So all the battery and Multiplus is worthless in this case, where 70% from the total energy need is drawn from the EV car.

Look I switched of the PV inverter than it looks like that:

i have to buy 4450 W from the grid even if i have 30kWh stored in the battery.

thank you,

best regards,

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teemischer avatar image teemischer gnagflow commented ·

I now took some time to really read everything in this thread.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding.

- Judging from your screenshot I would say that DayAndNight has a point here: Everything looks fine and seems to work as expected.

- Vs. your expectation: "If L1 is heavily loaded and L2 and L3 are idle, I want the multis L2+L3 to support L1 so I don't have to buy from the grid". But this is not how the system can work. Each multiplus on each phase can only supply this specific phase with its maximum power rating (but not adding the power ratings from the other idle phases)

So if my assumption of your expectation is correct, then there is a solution to your problem: You can add more multis per phase so you more power available PER PHASE. But magically transferring power from one phase to the other has not been invented yet.


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Magnus Pernemark avatar image Magnus Pernemark teemischer commented ·

He does not want to transfer power from one phase to another. He wants to export on phase L2 and L3 to compensate the 4456W he is buying.
L1 is doing what it can, but L2 and L3 needs to help by selling to the grid. This way the total would be zero.
And for many, including me, it is the total the electric company counts.

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow Magnus Pernemark commented ·

look here this is the subsequent thread:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/55480/ess-system-doesnt-react-not-balanced-to-high-ac-lo.html


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dayandnight avatar image dayandnight gnagflow commented ·

Hello @gnagflow,

Why did the PV inverter disappear and do not show 0W? Perhaps there is the problem. Because before with PV-Inverter on it worked to my understanding correctly.

But sorry I am not so deep in the architecture of an ESS system, that I can help here more in detail.

DayANdNight

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow dayandnight commented ·

I just switched it off, to see better the problem, that L2 and L3 is not helping to provide the house load of L1 - like phase compensation should. In one-phase system it works great, if i have a load of lets say 5kW on L2 and the one phase multplus is on L1 with no other loads, it fully delivers its power to the grid, while consuming from the grid on L2. That is the use and the sense of phase compensation. Unfortunately, Victron cant do it in the 3 phase configuration. For me its more 3 independent units on three phases than a three phase system. If I only can provide less than 2.5kW on one phase i would not buy three of those inverters.... Unfortunately, this is a very big fail-invest.

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Magnus Pernemark avatar image Magnus Pernemark dayandnight commented ·

Maybe he removed it to show a point.

L1 +3000W
L2 -1500W
L3 -1500W

Sum: Zero Watts

For many it is the sum that count, not the individual phases

But the problem is the L2 and L3 is doing nothing to help L1 to make a total zero-feed-in

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow Magnus Pernemark commented ·

yes thats true.

For all people who use an ess system only the sum counts and not the individual phase.

the only question is, why victron does not support that, for a problem that many many people have. Much more people live in a house than in a boat.

ESS and 3 phase system is something that Victron cant do properly. Phase compensation does not exist.

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow dayandnight commented ·

Hi, I changed the GX to the new release candidate, now the ESS settings menu is the same, do also see mutiphase regulation instead of phase compensation - but it does not work.

Although there is a difference on single and multiphase setting.

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala commented ·

Hello, what firmware do you use in your CCGX device?

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

Look at following thread, maybe a solution is coming:

Hello Victron-staff please help us with ESS Phase compensation!


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gnagflow avatar image
gnagflow answered ·

Probably its a kind of fake three phase system. I installed the latest firmware the latest Multiplus, I use Solaredge 3 phase PV inverter, 3x Multiplus 3000VA but the phase compensation is definitely not working. I read every manual -> so it is definitely not working. --> Victron Staff please help and explain why your system does not that what you sale it for !??

Problem again: big load at one phase, only one invert 100% the two other inverters are sleeping. The same as "phase compensation" disabled, but it is enabled. Your manual is not correct. It is not working.


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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Hi @gnagflow

I know it sounds counter intuitive...but you have to turn phase compenstion 'off' to get what you want, please read this:

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess:design-installation-manual#phase_compensation_-_further_information

quote:

Three phase ESS in a system with a three-phase connection to the utility grid

Three phase ESS is, at least, three inverter/chargers: one on each phase.

  • Phase Compensation enabled: ESS prevents circumstances where the battery might be charging on one phase whilst discharging on another.

  • Phase Compensation disabled: ESS regulates each separate phase to 0 W. This may result in ESS discharging on one phase whilst charging on another, which is very inefficient.

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

Dear Daniel, thank you for answering. I installed several Victron systems and i was very satisfied until today. But the three phase Victron solution is not providing a real "phase compensation" and the solution does not make sense for any customer, who has any higher regular loads than 2.5kW, or 5kW at the big setting. Why should anyone opt for a three phase system, if you cannot use all the power together???

If I disable phase compensation, I have the same result. I need e.g. 5kW power on phase 1, and the Victron system tries to use the Multiplus on phase 1 to bring the grid import down to zero, but it can only supply 2.5kW. So the rest is coming from the grid instead of using phase compensation and deliver the other 2.5kW by Multiplus on phase 2 or 3.

Is there any workaround or a possible customs setting, programming what can i do. Is the only way for phase compensation a one phase system?

thank you.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ gnagflow commented ·

Hi @gnagflow

Usually systems are designed in a way that the inverters can supply all loads when a grid outage occurs.

In this case the inverters cannot supply all loads, due to a big load unbalance in the phases. It is advised to further balance the loads (as is good practice in all installations, not only battery backup systems).

But: when disabling phase compensation, don't phase 2 and 3 charge the battery when there is surplus energy there? can you make a screenshot of what is not working as expected?

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

Dear Daniel,

no you are not right, if I disable phase compensation, none of the inverters 2+3 help out the inverter 1 with loads that are higher tha it can handle on phase 1. The only difference is, that if PV is providing e.g. 1kW on phase 2 and 3. It does not count it for the load requirement on phase 1 and charges it to the battery. Both settings are very unsatisfying for any ESS system were the grid provider uses phase compensating energy meters. The only thing i can now offer the customer is to sell him a 3 phase to 1 phase transformator for +1500EUR that he can load the EV from the home-battery with 10% loss in transformation. Is there any possible workaround, e.g. old firmware that i could use for real phase compensation like it works with only one multiplus in 3 phase systems? I made this installation, because often you can find in your manuals, that phase compensation works in 3 phase systems, only in the detailed description it shows that it is only a kind of "half - realized" phase compensation. The only part that is working is if the pv sells to the grid from phase 1 and i have loads on phase 2 than it is only inverting the reuqired additional power. But like in any grid based installation in ESS systems there are many loads on single phases that exceeds the 2.5kW limit of the inverters and in those cases the other inverters should deliver the suplus to the grid, so that the energy bill is as low as possible.

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dayandnight avatar image dayandnight gnagflow commented ·

Hello @gnagflow,

I understand now your concerns and wanted to know did you find a solution for this?

DayAndNight

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Magnus Pernemark avatar image Magnus Pernemark commented ·

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) Can you get someone to investigate the code for the "ESS assistant". It is truly not working as expected.

There is a setting "Multiphase regulation" and one can select "Total of all phases" or "individual phase"

Regardless of what you select. It is always acting as if it is "individual phase".

1615742758759.png

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/81114/ess-phase-compensation-not-working.html?childToView=81134

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image
Jan Zmrhala answered ·

Hi did you solved the problem? I have the same issue. I'm working without gridmeter and I believe it should work as well. It works with 1 phase system but there is no use in 3 phase.

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

no there is no solution, Victron needs to programm about 10 lines of code. The more people raising the problem the bigger is the chance that Victron makes an update

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ossi avatar image
ossi answered ·

*EDIT* seems like somebody has the sames issue the problem has been clarified:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/55480/ess-system-doesnt-react-not-balanced-to-high-ac-lo.html


Hi @gnagflow,


I dont have the solution to your problem, but i presume i could provide you with a tool to look INTO the Values of VenusOS. So perhaps VEsupport has it easier to pinpoint the issue.


With the ModbusTCP Server enabled you can remotely read and write values into VenusOs.

All of this is explained here, this way normally external EMS access data of VenusOs systems, like your system a ESS with VenusGx/CCGx/CerboGx and VEBus Devices.


Since i am not able to write the code for a tool myself, asked my brother to help me out.

https://github.com/CommentSectionScientist/ModbusTCP

For you to use the tool and have a look at each available value, download it


while you wait: Enable the Modbus Server on your VenusGx/CCGX via Settings/Services


Use START_modbusTCP_v3.0_Beta.cmd to update the register list according to the excel from victron in the same folder.

Then automatically starts modbusTCP_v3.0_Beta.jar!

Set the IP address of your VenusGX/CCGX and Port 502 is standard


Select the registers of the values and in which devices you want to read them via the dropdown and click Add Selected.

To read out the value click Read All.


It will now display the current value for the register for this device


I recommend to look at VEBUS ESS setpoint phase 1 and VEBUS ESS setpoint phase 2 and VEBUS ESS setpoint phase 3 of the device 246 or 242.


Hope this help to get some insights into the issue.


Ich geh jetzt mal grillen...

VG

Ossi


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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

Wow, sounds interesting! I will check it out when I come back from holiday. Would be great to get a solution! Unfortunately Victron does not supply a solution, it is somehow out of date, it is a kind of incompatible to supply electric vehicles (1 phase Charger)! Victron provides a great System, but it is very disappointing to do not provide a software setting for such kind of needs.


i invested now a lot of money to buy a transformer to make out of two phase 400V —> 230V ,also now I loose energy at transforming because the unavailability of phase compensation features that handle the need of one phase chargers of EVs...

I know that I can make an external control by Modbus tcp, made a project with my students and read the registers by an arduino and with a java program. Both worked.

But for regular use I don’t want to use external control, it is somehow too insecure an additional system that could make an issue (don’t want to burn up 40kWh Lithium cells)

Danke und schöne Grüße aus Sardinien ;)

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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

your program works fine:


and you are probably right, if an external control will be used via modbus-tcp, the ESS power setpoint value is probably the target one.

I am still hoping that Victron comes up with a solution ....

I would prefer to change the py program directly on the venux gx, which is reading and distributing the values via the internal dbus system. But i already looked to find the programm-file which has the ESS algorithm, but i cant find it.

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image
Jan Zmrhala answered ·

Hi. Anythink new about this issue. I have the same. I installed 3x3kVA multiplus. On L1 I have load about 3.5 kW, L2 and L3 are almost sleeping (around 100W) but the system takes around 1.5 kW from the network on L1 on the other two phases there is 0.


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gnagflow avatar image gnagflow commented ·

Looks at this thread: "

Hello Victron-staff please help us with ESS Phase compensation!"


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woliver avatar image
woliver answered ·

Hello Everybody, i have the same Problem and its very frustrating. Are there any new solutions?

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Aleksandar Malenic avatar image
Aleksandar Malenic answered ·

Hello all,

did someone read the maximum power rating of the Multiplus in inverting mode ? Pass-trough power, constant power load, inverting power, ...... Simple math if I expect to use the maximum inverting power for a phase regulation per phase then I am not allowed to exceed the load on that phase inidicating the max inverting power. So simple. If I have a larger system than I have to use more Multis in Parallel per phase and then make a group of a three phase. These a genuine small equipment with its physical borders...... Microvave on phase one, washing maschine on phase one cooking hoob on phase one whell this is too much.... Learn to use electricity with timing, first one, when finished then the other and so on.... Or invest more money and instaed 3 x 5kVA multiplus invest in 3x3 5kVA x 3 per phase then it will be fine....

I hope Victron will not switch of this funtionality as I bouth Victron stuff as the only product in the World that allowes single phase compensation in an efficient way as I am not able and allowed to export on other phases to the utility.

Cheers

Alex

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Magnus Pernemark avatar image Magnus Pernemark commented ·
Oh. You are really late to the party. Victron changed it over a year ago. Phase compensation works really well.

If I use the owen at 2500W one victron 3kVA cannot produce enough to zero out that phase. Then another 3kVA is used to compensate on another phase. This is perfect when you are billed for the sum of the phases in a geid tie installation.

It is not for off-grid installations

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