Why can’t I use Bluetooth instead of MK3 to change settings on VE.Bus Devices

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Warwick Bruce Chapman asked Dec 23, '19

Why can’t I use Bluetooth instead of MK3 to change settings on VE.Bus Devices

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) , I've been trying to find a post on this forum that explains why we cannot use VictronConnect / VE.Bus Smart Bluetooth Dongle to configure VE.Bus devices.

I imagine that Multis and the like are among Victron's best selling devices. Why would Victron not make at least a basic quick configure available through VictronConnect via Bluetooth for them?

I think I read once (perhaps from @mvader (Victron Energy Staff) somewhere) that this is a constraint that stems from the design of VE.Bus vs VE.Direct but I don't understand the details beyond that.

Interested. It is a real PITA having to use MK3 on installs. I am a Mac User and this means VirtualBox and Windows and taking my Mac onto sites. It is seriously schleppy.

It would be ideal to be able to use VictronConnect via Bluetooth on my iPhone instead.

Bluetooth MK3

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mvader (Victron Energy) answered · Dec 23, 2019 at 10:26 PM

Hi @warwick, to be completely open; I'm still a bit undecided with regards to how to allow changing inverter/charger settings over bluetooth. One of the reasons has indeed to do with security; requiring the mk3-usb is a nice physical barrier. And we need some barrier; rather than an innocent end-user (or his or her kid to dramatise this a bit) sitting on a couch and playing with a phone ending up changing the parameters of his/her multi.

And yes, same is true for MPPT Solar Chargers. Right now its up to the end-user to handle that responsibility; including to change the pin code and so forth. Which is nice and simple, but has its drawbacks.

So... lets see what we come up with. I do fully I understand your request/wish.

Currently, our priority when it comes to configuring Multis and Quattros, is to further expand the posibilities of VictronConnect. Already today you can use that on your mac without virtualbox or anything like that, to do firmware updates and configuration of the most common and basic systems. Documented here.

And what we are now adding is setting up of parallel, split- and three-phase systems, for example.

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Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Dec 24, 2019 at 04:33 AM

Thanks @mvader (Victron Energy Staff)

I will try VictronConnect native on the Mac with the MK3 and revert.

What if you:

force a non-default Bluetooth PIN to be set; and
require a configuration change password to be set.

The configure password must be stored on the Multi. If the password is forgotten, an MK3 must be used to reset the password.

Alternatively (and this will not work in some remote sites) use an OTP option to an installer phone or email address - or even better push notification to one of the Victron Apps - perhaps an Installer App.

I’ve had great success in large distributed application ecosystems with users scattered all over the place using OTPs instead of passwords to dramatically reduce people forgetting passwords. This is particularly useful in our case where people might not use something for a while but then when they need to use it, we can’t have them stymied by a forgotten password. Their cell number or email address for an OTP is less likely to change than a password is to be forgotten. We deliver OTPs in the following priority: - Push to App - SMS fallback - Email fallback

Perhaps you could also set the configure password as an offline fallback in the event the OTP cannot be delivered.

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mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Dec 24, 2019 at 06:51 PM

Hi Warwick, interesting! Could you explain a bit more on the OTP solution you used?

And I’m right that that won’t work for all installations where there is no internet, right?

and the other idea, to be able to reset the password as long as you have a wired cable (mk3 usb, or vedirect usb), is a nice one as well. And simple, no need for a helpdesk helping people to recover their passwords without knowing for sure if him/her is really allowed to get that password.

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Warwick Bruce Chapman mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented · Dec 26, 2019 at 08:44 PM

Yes that’s right @mvader (Victron Energy Staff).

The way I see it the OTP option will only be possible on sites with a Venus device. All IP networking happens from the Venus device from what I understand.

This may be a feature that is limited to people with a Victron professional account that can be optionally logged into VictronConnect. Once logged in, the push function of the App is enabled and the cell number and email address for OTPs come through for backup OTPs.

So, for example, an installer attempts to connect using VictronConnect via Bluetooth to an MP2:

assuming the PIN for the smart dongle has already been entered; then
when the user requests “advanced” mode, the MP2 asks the Venus to generate an OTP for a specific Victron professional user based on the combination of the serial numbers of itself (the MP2) and the smart dongle;
the Venus calls a micro service in the Victron cloud that generates OTPs to either push, SMS or email (we’ve built a few of these, we can help get this right quickly but OAuth2 is at the core);
i don’t know Ve.Bus, so I’m not sure what’s possible here but in RESTful terms, I’d see the MP2 receiving a confirmation of either the OTP or a hash of the OTP as a response (via the Venus);
when the installer receives the OTP, she enters it into VictronConnect and it is compared with the one stored on the MP2 (or hashed to compare to the hash) and authorization is either granted or denied.
The installer can choose, after a timeout of, say, 30 seconds, to attempt delivery to a backup mechanism, either SMS or Email. But if they’re using Victron connect and logged in with their professional profile - which they need to be in order to request advanced mode, then push should be all that’s necessary. (Note that push is also cheaper than transactional sms or email, especially if you implement your own service).

You will find that this form of authentication is way more convenient than passwords - but the push implementation must be flawless. (And I am certain you will also find that this micro service gets used for all sorts of other jobs - transactional push messages and emails and the like as well as changing other password based auth to OTP.)

The password is then a fallback in the event the OTP fails altogether and the MK3 the last resort to change the password.

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Warwick Bruce Chapman Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Dec 26, 2019 at 08:58 PM

Another benefit I can think of here is that much like using certificates for SSH auth, we can take steps to revoke access under certain circumstances that is not possible with just a password.

So, a Victron reseller business creates a professional profile for Jim their latest installer.

Jim does a good job for the first few months and sets up a slew of sites, each time using his OTPs to configure. Because he doesn’t need them, he is never issued the password for each device which was updated and prepared for him before he left for site (as they all should be).

Then, Jim gets fired! (We can host a creative writing competition to hear more about why).

As our creative writers will know, it turns out Jim is a rather devious bugger and if he could get into Bluetooth range of any of the installs he’s done, he would do his best to disable them or worse. All he needs is the OTPs or the password.

Since he was never issued the password, he need to use OTPs.

Now, all their employer must do is revoke the professional account: in its current form probably by changing the cell number and password of the account.

If Jim can’t get into the account he can’t get push OTPs, and his cell number won’t get SMS OTPs and he lost access to his work email when he was fired.

No OTPs and no password = no hacking his way in. The best he can do is remember the dongle PIN and do the things possible in simple mode (including switching the device off IIRC - which is a security issue if you asked me). This situation would force him to get physical access to plug in an MK3 before he could reactivate Bluetooth access - Ie. The same level of security as we have now.

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Warwick Bruce Chapman Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Dec 28, 2019 at 05:30 AM

One more thing @mvader (Victron Energy Staff) on this revocation potential: this would mean that the MP2 would need to store information about a Victron professional user group that is permitted to configure the device via Bluetooth - any other professional from any other group would have to use an MK3 to configure or to reset the user group access on the MP2.

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mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Jan 06, 2020 at 08:44 PM

Thanks @warwick; super useful. Next time we revisit the whole access level problem we'll for sure take these ideas into account. Sorry for not going in too deep now; but there are a few other also complex things to finish first..

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Warwick Bruce Chapman mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented · Jun 25, 2020 at 08:28 PM

Hi @mvader (Victron Energy) - just checking in here as to whether you've given this any thought.

And @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager), any reason why some of my posts above are missing?

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mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ Warwick Bruce Chapman commented · Jun 25, 2020 at 09:27 PM

I'm not missing any posts - but then again I can't miss what I don't see :)

And yes for sure its been given various thoughts; but for now still on the list to look into in detail - no real progress.

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Warwick Bruce Chapman mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented · Jun 26, 2020 at 05:53 AM

Thanks @mvader (Victron Energy). If I make any progress on the Zero, I’ll ask about access to the components.

What I meant about the posts is this:

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Answer 1 · 2019-12-23T12:47:47Z

solarchain answered · Dec 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM

It's a security issue. Bluetooth is too exposed, MK3 is limited to owner present with the devices.

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