12V Victron Phoenix 1200VA can't power a hair dryer

Question

question

ultimatesolar asked Apr 24, '24

12V Victron Phoenix 1200VA can't power a hair dryer

Hello,
seriously pretty pissed: have EXPENSIVE HIGH QUALITY Victron 1200VA here for a

Datasheed says: short time Peak Power 2200W https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Inverter-VE.Direct-250VA-1200VA-EN.pdf

used 6mm2 PV cable for connection to 100Ah LiFePo4 battery, i know this is not IDEAL but it WORKS X-D

HOW can it be that the inverter says "overload" and shuts down with a hair dryer that demonstrably draws 150W at the socket (level 1)?

This is VERY VERY BAD X-D

even ordered the Bluetooth dongle, but the App can (apparently) set NOTHING to "overload", only when shutdown happens because of low batt voltage

THAT's IT?

The Victron MPPT are okay, but something like that is just a complete fail?

can't even operate a damn hair dryer? VICTRON? is the 24V variant better?

100% Taiwan + China the only AFFORDABLE option for solar systems WITHOUT THESE KIND OF PROBLEMS? (they have their own problems, make sure to always buy DOUBLE the labeled capacity as example: 5000CkW (Chinese kilo Watt) / 2.5 = 2000RkW (Real Kilo Watt without COMPLETELY distorted SINUS that might destroy devices and burn down the house)

PS: 1. problems during forum registration (it returns some JSON error... after EVERY LOGIN success: false result: error "An unexpected error occurred while processing the request." VICTRON CAN AFFORD SOME PROPER IT EXPERTS LIKE ME!)

2. this forum is slow

3. yes I AM NOT A BOT, how much more often will the forum ask this?

PS: DO I HAVE TO PU T AN AGM BATTERY (HEAVY!) USV IN FRONT OF THIS TO POWER A HAIR DRYER? (WHICH MAKES THIS ALREADY VERY HEAVY SETUP (the thing weighs 7kg!) EVEN HEAVIER which is NOT ideal to carry around so much weight just to power a HAIRDRYER.

is the "startup power" "inrush current" draw the problem? then this is ALSO a fail, because there are Chinese products that handle that just fine.

Victron Europe you can do better!

UPDATE: it CAN power and handle the inrush-startup-power of a FRIDGE, but NOT a HAIRDRYER, which is sad :(

Phoenix Inverter

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

duivert answered · Apr 24 at 02:19 PM

few things are not ok in your install, see the manual of the inverter

battery capacity is to low, minimum! is 150Ah/12v

6mm2 wire is way to thin, should be 25mm2, if longer then 1,5m 35mm2 is required

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

ultimatesolar commented · Apr 24 at 06:21 PM

ok so will just use 4x 6mm2 wires X-D then its 24mm2, but will it fix the problem? if not... WILL BE BACK X-D

0 ·

Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered · Apr 24 at 03:38 PM

Hi,

Hairdryers can be non-linear loads, see here for a previous answer with a more detailed explaination -

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/61525/pheonix-122000-and-hair-dryers.html

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

ultimatesolar commented · Apr 24 at 07:01 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ml5CH0p90

0 ·

Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2024-04-24T12:52:39Z

Dušan Klofutar answered · Apr 24 at 12:52 PM

Hi !

Hair dryer is probably 1500W...

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

ultimatesolar commented · Apr 24 at 12:57 PM

no dude, on settings 1 it draws 150W!!!! (did not even try setting 2 and 3) is the "startup power" "inrush current" draw the problem? have you ever used one?

0 ·

Answer 2 · 2024-04-24T15:20:57Z

prein answered · Apr 24 at 03:20 PM

Man, something is seriously wrong with your keyboard. The caps are all over the place..

On a more serious note: people are willing to help if you rant less.

And then to the solution:

150W should be possible. As a hairdryer is a resistive load I assume the in rush current can't be the problem. So:

- Check the voltage drop. Your cable is very thin. Can be problematic. Although I agree that it should be able to handle 150W

- check another load. Does it work with another 150W? And a 500w load and so on.

I'm sure something is wrong. Maybe you can share some details. Is it the overload warning you see? Not the low battery?

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 3 · 2024-04-24T16:15:46Z

Justin Cook answered · Apr 24 at 04:15 PM

It's odd that an admission of using the wrong type and gauge of cable to install the unit to an undersized battery bank, followed by "...but it WORKS XD" is both preceded and followed by a full report of it not, in fact, working at all.

Datasheet specs only apply when a product is properly installed to begin with, so start by correcting the installation.

It still may not work very well, since a hairdryer is a non-linear load which presents its own special set of challenges, but the first problem -that of the installation- is well within your control to be able to correct.

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 4 · 2024-04-24T17:04:52Z

klim8skeptic answered · Apr 24 at 05:04 PM

@UltimateSolar used 6mm2 PV cable for connection to 100Ah LiFePo4 battery, i know this is not IDEAL but it WORKS X-D

This is something that needs to be remedied. At full load your inverter will draw over 100a out of the battery. You need 25mm cable (or thicker) depending on cable length.

You dont mention if your LiFePo4 battery has a BMS capable of 100a output needed to power the inverter.

As mentioned, some hair dryers wont run on Victron inverters.

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 5 · 2024-04-24T18:24:24Z

ultimatesolar answered · Apr 24 at 06:24 PM

thanks for all CONSTRUCTIVE replies: The Battery is NOT the problem, it does not really care about the startup current, the voltage barely flinches... it is the Victron Inverter that says "oh u have been pulling like too much startup current... this is too much for me... shutting down for 5sec.. cya later plz with less startup current"

the problem: have only 2 weeks to return this thing... so will borrow some hairdryers and report back? X-D

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 6 · 2024-04-24T18:51:31Z

ultimatesolar answered · Apr 24 at 06:51 PM

just tested THE SAME HAIR DRYER starts up works fine (even for only a short time because of the tiny tiny USV AGM batteries 10Ah~ each?) on https://www.ebay.de/itm/126423659027 APC Smart UPS rated only 1000VA !!!

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 7 · 2024-04-24T19:05:02Z

ultimatesolar answered · Apr 24 at 07:05 PM

Sorry should have been more SPECIFIC: the HAIRDRYER actually starts (level 1 = 150W = cold) but shuts down after 2sec with "overload"

how does this make ANY sense? X-D

what is going on in "the brain" of the Phoenix? (it clearly has one, updated the firmware and all)

Phoenix: "uh... detected overcurrent 2sec ago... will shutdown"

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

nickdb ♦♦ commented · Apr 25 at 05:59 AM

This has been explained already. The hairdryer is NOT pulling 150W from the inverter perspective. You can sometimes get around this with a much more expensive one that doesn't display this behaviour. Many posts on the subject on much bigger inverters that behave the same, or make a hell of noise covering this switching load.

If you connect it to a high frequency inverter/system (ie not transformer based like most UPS or chinese inverters), it will work as they can handle those nasty little power supplies that are often seen in some hair products.

0 ·

Answer 8 · 2024-04-24T19:24:58Z

ultimatesolar answered · Apr 24 at 07:24 PM

Some Updates: double the cable size: did not matter. In the App it can be seen how it draws 400VA for like 2 seconds... then it shuts down.

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

nickdb ♦♦ commented · Apr 25 at 06:03 AM

As long as it draws 1500W on a 960W inverter, albeit for part of a cycle, the inverter will not cope. Some very experienced folks have replied to you in detail about this.

Low frequency systems are not compatible with those types of products. There are many on the market that do not display this behaviour and the only solution is either a hairdryer that does not behave that way, or a high-frequency inverter.

0 ·

Answer 9 · 2024-04-25T06:05:46Z

Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered · Apr 25 at 06:05 AM

The way a 1500W resistive element appears to draws 150W is by cutting into the sine wave to only draw 1500W for 1/10th of the cycle.

It's still drawing 125A at 12V in huge spike for a fraction of a second (over and over) - that appears to the inverter like a large surge load.

There aren't different resistance coils inside the hair drier for each power setting. Just a single 1500W element, and then a switching circuit that cuts the power in and out. 1/10th of the cycle for 150 W, 1/2 cycle for 750W, etc

The way to measure this is with a high frequency oscilloscope. Multimeters and the built in measurement of the inverter are not fast enough to see high currents for a fraction of a second (they will show the average over a cycle, or even multiple cycles, which are happening 50 times per second).

The overload circuit is fast enough though, which is what you're seeing.

For this kind of the load the best thing to do is to get a 12V DC hair dryer (intended for RV use) and bypass the inverter and just run it off the DC bus from the battery.

https://www.awardrv.com.au/portable-hairdryer-12v-simply-glam

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 10 · 2024-04-25T06:15:30Z

ultimatesolar answered · Apr 25 at 06:15 AM

in the Phoenix's defense: it can really handle 1200VA = Watts constant load, it powered a 1200V STEBA induction cooking plate just fine over a time of 10min (while massively draining battery + yes the cables got a bit warm X-D)

PS: the highest level of the 1200W STEBA induction cooker is = 1200W and if put to lower settings, it probably operates like the HAIRDRYER (1200W on... 1200W off... 1200W on... 1200W off...)

looks like the HAIRDRYER AND the STEBA is "cheating"

offer to send the specific HAIRDRYER to Victron for further testing :D

PS: But WHY is it that the APC USV rated to 1000VA can handle the hairdrier? (probably with MASSIVE distortion to the SINUS can not meassure don't have oszi)

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

nickdb ♦♦ commented · Apr 25 at 06:44 AM

The APC is almost certainly a high-frequency device ie it doesn't have a large transformer, like Victron inverters and that operate at a lower frequency. Victron have a high-frequency system - the RS.

This LF architecture has some quirks, one of which is it just isn't happy with those types of power supplies.

I helped a family member with a 10kVA system that sounded like it was trying to leap off the wall, only when the hair dryer was set to a lower setting. At high power it was perfect. The solution in that case was to upgrade the boss's hair dryer to a model that did not switch at lower power settings - they do exist.

It is a common question - why does it work on a low cost Chinese inverter vs a Victron. It is the difference in architecture of transformer-based vs transformerless.

2 ·

Answer 11 · 2024-04-29T11:32:25Z

ultimatesolar answered · 4 days ago

thanks for all the PRODUCTIVE answers, yes it might really be the hairdryer that instead of actually reducing Wattage is in a fast on-off mode which of course is no good and puts massive strains on the grid? X-D (that's why Melmak exploded!)

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

question