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drizzt321 avatar image
drizzt321 asked

Victron LFP battery question

Usage: small travel trailer, moderate usage but needing more power to get through nights running danfoss chest/cooler fridge (outside) and inside small danfoss fridge, when it's hot out. Plus lighting, and charging up various other bits.

I've currently got a BattleBorn 12v 100Ah battery, and I'm looking for 200+Ah (not going to describe fuse setup, it's sufficient with fallback Class-T at the battery). I'm contemplating switching to Victron LFP so I can tie into the rest of my current Victron systems (BMV-712, MPPT 150/50, Orion Tr Isolated 12-12 18a) for monitoring/etc of the battery, which BattleBorn doesn't have, which would be a nice to have.

I could just add a 100Ah BattleBorn, or upgrade the newer 270Ah BattleBorn, but the monitoring/integration could be nice.

However, upon reading closer, it looks like the Victron LFP doesn't have an integrated BMS in each battery pack? But it does have in-pack cell balancing? I'm getting confused now, so it had no built-in protection at all from over-current or over-voltage or anything like that?

So I'd need both a Smart BatteryProtect as well as a BMS, such as smallBMS or VE.Bus BMS V2. Seems overkill for my system, I'd just like cell health monitoring and such, but seems like Victron isn't for small systems with limited space :(

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hardy-tuner avatar image
hardy-tuner answered ·

Victron LFP has in-pack cell balancing, but no built-in protection from over-current or over-voltage. yes you should use a Smart BatteryProtect when you have no phoenix or Multiplus as inverter.

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drizzt321 avatar image drizzt321 commented ·

*sigh* It's like Victron doesn't want to support or provide equipment for smaller setups, especially those in small trailer type setups. Only bigger, off-grid or grid-tie situations. Or bigger trailers/5th wheels or the like.


Likewise with 120v inverters and inverter/chargers, they either are just not quite enough for my requirement, or vastly oversized. I realize it won't be tiny, but I want to be able to run a power tool, for short periods of time, if I need. ~2000-2200W continuous, 2500+W peak startup. The Phoenix Smart VE.Direct, which also has BT, doesn't come close, the Phoenix Inverter Smart has a 12v/3000VA which would work, but only comes in 230v, and the Phoenix Inverter 120v 12/3000 would work, but only has VE.Bus, no VE.Direct to plug into my BMV-712 or BT for the phone app for configuration.

For Inverter/Charger even more limited options, AFAIK none of them offer VE.Direct/BT, and it seems even fewer offer 120v.

Or have I missed some options?

Victron is expensive, especially the 2000-3000VA I've looked at, but my impression is rock solid and Just Works(tm) and works well, even when stressed. So I WANT to give them my money, just I don't think they have any other bits that suits my needs and requirements that will tie into the Smart or VE.Direct on the BMV to enable me to manage it without a full blown Cerbo type setup.

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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ drizzt321 commented ·

Connecting the Phoenix Smart Inverter with VE.direct to a BMV is not supported.

The VE.direct port is for communication to a GX device (or PC with USB interface) not for connecting different VE.direct devices together.

For VE.bus there is also a Smart Dongle available.
https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/ve-bus-smart-dongle

The "problem" with 120V models is that Victron is a european company so they focus on the european 230V market and new products are always coming as 230V models first. I'm sure the Phoenix Smart Inverter will also come as a 120V model some day but I don't know of any roadmap for that.

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drizzt321 avatar image drizzt321 Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·

So I do understand that these product designs should be fairly long lived, which means updating for the `Smart` BT connectivity is a slow process, but it feels (to me) like it's been a rather long time to refresh most models and include that functionality. Although given they are certified, maybe it's not as quick of a process that I, as a consumer, imagines.

I do understand that you're a EU first company, and while it isn't as simply as swapping in a 230v->120v module, especially at higher power levels, surely you see there's enough demand that it's worthwhile to have something like that on the roadmap with a general time frame. 6 months, 12 months, 18 months or what not after releasing the primary markets 230v version.

And adding another ~$100 or so for the VE.Bus dongle. And it's more wiring and physical space and so on. And while it's great you offer this for older equipment, Victron increasingly feels behind the times for small builders, rather than large scale installations.

I'm really wanting to give you money, but you're making it hard for me to do beyond MPPT + Orion (which STILL doesn't participate in VE.Smart AFAIK) + BMV + BlueSmart charger. I'm just going to have to go to another company for an inverter (or ditch the BlueSmart for inverter charger, which is tempting despite the cost).

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snoobler avatar image snoobler drizzt321 commented ·
As a US-based Victron customer, I share share some of your frustrations; however, it's not as simple as you wanting to give them money.


To be competitive with established "tier 1" hardware (Outback, Schneider, Magnum, etc.), Victron must obtain UL approval for their offerings, or they can't be installed in most situations. That adds a whole layer of complexity, cost and delay.


The EU is oozing with opportunity for grid-interactive systems and load shifting to avoid peak charges, which can be freaking insane.


IMHO, while Victron may emotionally care about you and your needs, they really can't afford to do much of anything about it beyond evolve the current product lines. They would be foolish to divert precious resources from their core competence and primary market. They likely have those roadmaps in place, but they review them regularly and shift priorities as needed, so what started as an 18 month goal will likely turn into 3+ years or more unless that market suddenly presents new opportunities.


The MP-II 2x 120 inverter/charger is a major boost to the U.S. 50A RV market, and that builds on their prior UL458 offerings. It simplifies and automates dealing with 30A vs. 50A shore power. It's a big deal with a big potential.




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drizzt321 avatar image drizzt321 snoobler commented ·

EDIT: Deleted and re-added, formatting was messed up.


I'm sure proper UL certification is not as quick or easy, even when you have a good QA/testing pipeline, as we'd all like it to be. But that's also to the good, to make sure it's a good quality product.

And while intellectually I know Victron is not a giant company, it seems to be a pretty good sized company for this market/space, with sufficient experience to be able to progress a few product refreshes at a time, and at least dribble out some for it's secondary (USA) market. Which is still quite large potential.

The MP-II 2x 120 inverter/charger is a major boost to the U.S. 50A RV market, and that builds on their prior UL458 offerings. It simplifies and automates dealing with 30A vs. 50A shore power. It's a big deal with a big potential.


Yeah, as you say, for large RVs/trailers. Unfortunately that's very much not even close to what I am. Perhaps I can get away with a 1200VA that a 12/1200 Phoenix V.Direct, and hope the 2200W surge handles whatever I need. Which OK...maybe I'm trying to overspec. 2200W surge should be able to handle a 5 or 7.5a water pump or impact wrench startup and running usage. Especially when it's not constant, and I have 400W of solar up and running, a 200A LFP should have plenty of capacity.

And it's a LOT cheaper, including for wiring. Although I'll need a VE.Direct BT dongle sadly. Adding to a bit more cost. Although it would be awfully useful to have a relatively small inverter-charger, around 2000VA or so sigh

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snoobler avatar image snoobler drizzt321 commented ·

They are "dribbling out" products, just not what you want. MP-II have also been adapted to 120VAC, some with UL certs.


"Hope" is an invalid design approach. Get a ammeter with an INRUSH function and measure your surge. Imagine how pissed you'll be when it doesn't work.


Make sure you understand the limits of the VE.Bus smart dongle. it is primarily for monitoring only:


https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/VE.Bus_Configuration_Guide/en/limitations.html


If you want to configure it, you'll need the MK3-USB adapter.


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drizzt321 avatar image drizzt321 snoobler commented ·
Yes, well, unfortunately those items are not something I typically have on hand to measure.


And I was referring to the VE.Direct BT adapter for the Phoenix V.Direct version.

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snoobler avatar image snoobler drizzt321 commented ·
If you had an important screw, and you needed a screwdriver, would you say, "I don't have a screwdriver" and complete the project without it?


You're doing exactly that by taking a hit off the hopeium pipe.


I got confused on the VE.Bus vs. VE.Direct BT adapters. Sorry about that.

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klim8skeptic avatar image klim8skeptic ♦ drizzt321 commented ·

@Drizzt321 Although it would be awfully useful to have a relatively small inverter-charger, around 2000VA or so sigh

You can do a lot of stuff with that inverter/charger though. Spend money, to save more money.

With selected appliances you can cook, keep your food cold/frozen, heat your water, wash your clothes, pretty much power all your tiny home.

The additional benefit of being able to charge your battery at a decent rate cant be ignored. Reduced generator run times save gas (liquid fuel).

Sunshine is free, you only need to catch it and store it for later use. Propane is costly, needs bottle swaps and only has the side benefit of providing some heat while cooking.

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drizzt321 avatar image drizzt321 klim8skeptic ♦ commented ·
So as my OP said, this is a small travel trailer. Cooking is propane, and will have a small 12v compressor fridge to handle those needs. And I probably won't often be hooking up to shore power, honestly. And the size is more to handle occasional larger loads, while generally not actually needing 120v at all, or rarely. Or if I do take a big long road trip, just to power my laptop and Starlink during the day for work, that sort of thing. Or charging my drill/driver batteries since Dewalt doesn't make a reasonably affordable 12v charger and I already have 3 AC chargers. So fundamentally I was vastly oversizing for the normal possible usage for the rare edge case usage.
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klim8skeptic avatar image klim8skeptic ♦ drizzt321 commented ·

@Drizzt321 sounds like you need another BB battery for extended capacity.

Morningstar make some tough inverter with features you might like.

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