question

paul-campbell avatar image
paul-campbell asked

Multiplus: Grid mains as backup only for battery.

I am trying to choose between a Victron Multiplus and a competitors offering.

The solution I want is 240VAC from the batteries.

If and only if those batteries drop below, say X volts will the mains grid power be switched in either to charge the batteries only or to direct connect grid mains through until something else charges the batteries.

(Removed rant about "add-on ware").

Most of the blurb on the Multiplus (24/1200VA) is targeting RVs, boats etc. who make use of, sometimes lacking, "shore power". So it seems as by default, just the Multiplus on it's own, will operate in this mode. If shore power is connected it gets preferably used. When shore power disappears it inverts off the batteries. When shore comes back it charges the batteries and runs the loads off shore power.

Is this correct? That's exactly what I don't want. I want "shore power" to be "last resort".

In other setups I have seen the references to "backup generators". I have seen YouTubers using this to chain Victron inverters. Is it feasible with just the multiple and maybe the USB config dongle to enable the Multiplus 24/1200 in that mode, where the grid mains is treated as a backup generator and only used when the batteries are depleted?

Restating. Mine is an off-grid system which will only use mains power when it has no other choice.

I keep saying, "the Multiplus" on it's own. What is the absolute minimum required "adapters, dongles and gadgets" to get access to the settings required to, say, use the ESS system settings to configure what I want. I am more than capable of going the Raspberry PI, ESP32, STM32 routes if required and not afraid to get the soldering iron out... on the LV side. Never the HV side.

Obviously all the diagrams on the main Victron site simply tell you that you need ALL of the gadgets and ALL of the victron gear. That's understandable, but often I find it untrue.

I already have an existing 24VDC 3kWh LFP+MPPT system and my own mains powered 20A charger.

Thanks for the help :)

multiplus ve.busoffgridanti islanding
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4 Answers
paul-campbell avatar image
paul-campbell answered ·

Just having a thought...

In that default, lets call it, "RV Mode". It would give me what I want out of the box with the only stipulation being, it would be up to me to manually (or via smart switch) give the Multiplus "shore power".

It doesn't need to know where the shore power comes from or why its there now and not before. It can shut up and charge the damn batteries and produce AC power.

Blunt, but does that work? I can then, maybe, later upgrade to allow the Victron ESS/Eco-system control more of the process?

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matt1309 avatar image
matt1309 answered ·

Yes all the settings you mention work, however the words you've used aren't the words victron uses as you'd expect.

Personally when I was shopping around victron seemed one of the few providers that seemed (with some configuration) to support most if not all scenarios. Whereas other systems (which sounds like you've noticed) require some external internet connection gadget or some cloud app to function.


I think for your setup you either need a GX inverter or cerbo gx or a raspberry pi (with venus OS). If you go raspi route you'll need some adapters to turn victron devices into USB (MK3 to usb for multiplus and another for MPPT i cant remember the name of that one though sorry)

I'm making assumptions here but given you know what a raspi is I think victron is a good choice for you. A lot of potential for adding your own drivers (for DIY tank sensors and many more) and all data is accessible via MQTT and modbusTCP so you'll have fun adding custom devices/systems. It's far more open than other solar systems I've seen. The fact their monitoring system can run on a raspi (it's not debian based but still really useful).


When you say when battery gets to specific voltage what it swaps to grid if available is just Min SOC setting in ESS if you go ESS route. However in your setup you want shore to be used when connected in which case you'd set this to 100 as you want shore to charge batteries to 100 (ie shore preference).

This done on battery state of charge rather than voltage you mentioned. Which I imagine you'll do if you're using LiFePO4 as voltage is often difficult metric for SoC on LiFePO4.

You'll wire AC/Shore into ACIN then your loads on ACOUT1 or ACOUT2 (ACOUT1 stays on when grid goes down whereas ACOUT2 does not).

Depending on your setup if you're using a supported BMS with you LFP battery the SoC and other battery data can be connected to the victron system. If you're using a BMS that isn't supported (yet) or you dont want to stress about configuring the communication between victron and BMS then you'll need a smart shunt which essentially counts amps in vs amps out to track SoC of LFP batteries given voltage isn't a great indicator. (I personally prefer smart shunt setup, however if your BMS isn't supported there are tonnes of community made drivers to integrate them or you can make your own, most are written in python and Victron provides template drivers to add to venus os to help get you started on writing python scripts to integrate your own devices).





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paul-campbell avatar image
paul-campbell answered ·

Thank you for taking the time. I have purchased a Multiplus 24/800.

My next question is a little more tricky, apparently. I think it's simple, but others disagree.

Given the "Multiplus range", at least some models "can" be configured as "grid tie" inverters they will require G98/G99 and DNO sign off to be connected.

I'm not convinced the 24/800 MP actually 'can' feed the grid. Even if I configured it so.

I'm also not convinced I need to do anything other than get an electrician to install the unit and it's correct earthing.

I used to be sure about where the regulations ended, but the recent updates to those particular british regulations are ... untenably and obviously an industry support effort "impetus" from teh government. The contenous issue is the net now extends to include, any and all storage and generation equipemtn regardless of AC/DC off grid of on grid. All come under the regulations.

The reality is probably that very, very few line items actually apply, but reading some of the documentation on gov.uk and those documents are not for consumer use and include everything from 5MW CCGT plants to 3MW wind turbines and makes scant reference to anything under 0.8kW... however it "implies" that all ESS systems are covered now.

Like most British standards if taken verbatim and word for word, you wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING. Working out which clauses apply and which parts apply in which circumstances requires an engineering degree!

That's absolutely fine if you ARE installing a 5MW renewables generation plant in your farm field, but not if you are trying to run a fridge and server off a solar panel in the garden. It forces you into paying for engineering talent, certification and skill sets which are hard to find and very expensive.

3 comments
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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw commented ·

Even the small multiplus inverters are bi-directional and offers functionalty of the larger units. These inverters can all manage energy flow in both direction to optimise self consumption. This should not be confused with feedin. For ESS you will have to enable a grid code, which makes it grid-tie and the system will have to be hardwired with the necessary protection etc. Your proposed system falls well under the 3.68kW so is a simpler G98 process.

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matt1309 avatar image matt1309 commented ·

I've had similar headaches deciphering DNO requirements and plan to submit mine a request shortly.

G98 i believe is what you're after like ejrossouw already mentioned.

For you system i think it's clear cut G98 however if you aren't 100% or if your system gets bigger etc. I have heard that folk have much greater success with the whole process by just calling their DNO to start with for a straight answer (can be a pain to get through sometimes from what I've heard). However it seems to be the best way to get a solid answer as each DNO policy seems to differ.

Even though they're following the same requirements... (I can see just from your tone above you're already well aware of this hahaha).


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paul-campbell avatar image paul-campbell matt1309 commented ·

These are both useful comments. Thanks.

Annoyingly, when I went via my DNO website I found there "Connections" form wizard and filled it in. It came back with a definitive answer that I need to follow G98/NI.

Note, G98/NI is still in the first addition from April 2019.

https://www.nienetworks.co.uk/about-us/distribution-code/erec-g98-ni

Now I gotta go dig out some victron type certs if I can find them.

At least now I have a much smaller document in language that me and my local spark can understand.

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Kevin Windrem avatar image
Kevin Windrem answered ·

While ESS may be a solution, it does require Venus OS.

Instead, you could use the "Ignore AC input" virtual switch or assistants all within the Multi.

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