question

renne avatar image
renne asked

Victron Quattro-II 48/5000/70-50-50 QUA482504010 certifications for german grid?

Hello,

as the Multiplus-II does not accept generators if configured for the german grid we need to use Victron Quattros-II 48/5000/70-50-50 QUA482504010. They can be bought in Germany but seem to lack certifications for the german grid.

When will the certifications for the german grid be available?

It would be sad if we have to switch to another manufacturer than Victron because of the lack of generator-support/certifications.


Thanx for any hint! :-)

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter ChargerGeneratorgrid
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13 Answers
wkirby avatar image
wkirby answered ·

It may be because the 5kVA Quattro does not meet the certification requirements and therefore would not get a certificate.
The 8kVA Quattro has got a VDE certificate for DE. I realise that it is probably not within the budget, but that is the smallest Quattro with VDE certification.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Certificate-ESS-VDE-AR-N-4105-2018-11-Quattro-48-8000-110,-48-10000-140,-48-15000-200.pdf

2 comments
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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·
He is asking for the new Quattro-II ;)
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wkirby avatar image wkirby ♦♦ Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·
Sorry, I missed the "II" in the title. Thank you. :)
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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·

Wie ich es auch in dem anderen Thema geschrieben habe, wird das sicher noch einige Wochen dauern und das ist auch nichts das Victron beschleunigen kann, da die Zertifikate ja von einem externen Prüfinstitut ausgestellt werden.


As I wrote in the other thread it will surely take some weeks and Victron can do nothing about that, because the certificate is tested in an external institute.

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renne avatar image
renne answered ·

A rough timetable would be great to see if we can count on the Quattro-II.

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renne avatar image
renne answered ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

What's the state of the certification process for the german grid?

Is there any certification process?

Will there be any certification process?


Thanx for any hint

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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

As written above, there are already unit (Multiplus II ) which are certified for the grid code. Not all products will get this certificate as there are hardware differences.

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff),

is your answer a "no" to OPs question?

If it is, why is it possible to select e.g. AT/DE grid codes in VeConfigure on a Quattro2?

Thanks for a clear answer in advance,

Markus

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Juha Tuomala avatar image Juha Tuomala markus ♦♦ commented ·
Yeah, that was written next day the war started. IMO red tape is not needed when there is energy crisis going on.
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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Not sure what you mean.

The units which are compling to the grid code have the option for the selection. Others without compliance don't have this option(of course)

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ commented ·

What I mean is, in order to get a ESS system with Quattro2 allowed in DE/AT, you have to show a compliance certificate to the electricity provider.


Like this one for the Multiplus2 3k and 5k:

Certificate-TOR-Erzeuger-Typ-A-v1.1-All-MultiPlus-II-(GX)-3k-&-5k.pdf (victronenergy.de)


It is not enough for the electricity providers, just to tell to them, that a certain grid code can be configured on the units, to get a system approved.


The same is true for 8k and 10k Multiplus2.


Thanks and best Regards,

Markus

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented ·
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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

The thing is that if a unit isn't certified yet there will be no grid code option either. If you have a unit installed which isn't certified, there is not selection for the specific grid code possible. Was it promised to you it was there when you bought this unit? I am not sure if/when there will be a certificate for this specific unit I am afraid.


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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ commented ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

"The thing is that if a unit isn't certified yet there will be no grid code option either"

Please be informed, that this is not the case on MP2 8k and 10k and on the Quattro2 5k

1645784173521.png

1645784569024.png

Best Regards,

Markus

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented ·

How can someone have the idea, to use a Quattro2 for a grid - certified ESS?


Because section 1 in the Quattro2 datasheet states this:

image-3.png

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renne avatar image
renne answered ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

After buying a Multiplus-II 48/5000/70 we found multiple statements in this forum that a Multiplus-II configured to german grid-code does not accept current from a generator (Automatic-Transfer-Switch installed between grid/generator and Multiplus-II). So we returned the Multiplus-II.


We were referred to the Quattro-(II) series with integrated ATS. When I checked the Victron website about the Quattro-II 48/5000/70 I realized there is no certification for the german grid.


Situation:

  • 2.4 kWp solar panels (MPPT Smart Solar 150/45 planned, eventually 10-30 kWp for off-grid operation)
  • 4x 12V 110Ah AGM batteries (eventually 10-30 kWh LiFePo or Redox-Flow for off-grid operation)
  • german single-phase 35A (C32 breaker) TN-C-S grid (TN-C before ATS, TN-S behind ATS).
  • 1.7 kW inverter generator for black-outs (eventually 3 kW cogenerator for off-grid operation in winter)


Basically we want to start with a small system that can be scaled up to off-grid when the building gets insulated (HVAC, heat-pump, etc.). UPS functionality is important. Currently we want to optimize own consumption without feeding into the grid but depending on legal and market situation it should be possible to feed current into the grid.



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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Hello, You can of course add a third party DNS safety relay to the system to make it complying to the code you want.

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renne avatar image
renne answered ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

Now I'm completely confused. For ESS it is necessary to set the correct grid code.

According to multiple comments of @Matthias Lange - DE in this forum a Multiplus II with a german grid code most likely will not accept generator input. How would a DNS safety relay solve this?

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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·

I'm not sure if a "DNS safety relay" is the same as an anti-islanding-relay like the Ziehl UFR1001E.

The grid will go through that relay and you can disable the gird code inside the MP-II.

Behind the relay you have to install a switch to switch between grid and generator.

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·

@Matthias Lange - DE

What is the German Grid Code “VDE -AR-N whatever numbers “external NS protection” for?

Isn’t this the grid code to be selected, to be certified with external ENS like Ziehl?

In my view there is no chance for ESS in AT/DE with “other not compliant” even with external ENS used.

BR

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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

A grid code is needed to comply to a certain area/network. For ESS one is needed to be elected but this can also be set as "other" so you may make settings as you want (for example to make the genes working). To then still a grid compliance is needed which would require a external DNS in the grid line,


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renne avatar image renne commented ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

Does the grid code only configure the internal NA behaviour or other settings, too?
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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ commented ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

Hi, how do you configure e.g. Q(u) or P(f) functionality with grid code “other” and external anti islanding relay hardware only?
This is required by most local EVUs.

In DE, there is the grid code VDE AR-N “external NS protection” to be grid compliant with external NS protection hardware

BR

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Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented ·
When these settings are required there is not another solution to buy a certified unit.
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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

That’s the reason why this thread exists ;o)

1 Like 1 ·
renne avatar image renne markus ♦♦ commented ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

The best option would be to have a certified Quattro-II. Especially as the Multiplus-II cannot monitor grid and generator state behind an external Automatic-Transfer-Switch.


Bottom-line: Using a Multiplus-II with grid-code VDE AR-N “external NS protection”, ATS and external NS-device like the 500,- € UFR1001E currently is the only way to use a generator?

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ renne commented ·

Hi, @renne

no - sorry, as long as you have to select a e.g. DE/AT grid code, the grid rules are too strict, for most gensets to be accepted at the AC-input of a Multi and even a Quattro2.

Matthijs is aware of this, and maybe there will be a solution for the Quattro2, but not now.

The only good working solution at the moment, is to use an extra charger for your genset to charge the batteries in a ESS.

See here:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/120935/which-generators-are-fully-compatible.html?childToView=121590#answer-121590

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented ·

If you use a dedicated Multi (or other charger) for the generator, you can have it displayed like this on VRM:bildschirmfoto-2022-02-28-um-195227.png

and you can perfectly use a single phase genset in a 3 phase ESS...

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renne avatar image renne markus ♦♦ commented ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

It's quite weird the Quattro-II has two AC-ins but can only handle grid input while the manual describes grid + genset operation.

You may want to update the manual.

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ renne commented ·
This is only true for a grid certified ESS, in other applications, the Quattro2 can handle grid and generator perfectly, but I see your point and as I said above, it is a known issue without a solution for now.
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renne avatar image renne markus ♦♦ commented ·
Is it possible to use "Nulleinspeisung" + Power-Control + Power-Assist with a SmartSolar MPPT 150/45 + Multiplus-II or Quattro-II 48/5000/70 + VenusOS + GenSet without ESS?
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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ renne commented ·

Ja, das geht.

Eigenverbrauch der PV ist dann aber nur möglich, wenn Du Dich mit ignore AC als Insel vom Netz trennst.

Sonst ist das dann eine USV Anlage, die bei Netzausfall über PV nachladen kann und mit einem Quattro2 oder aber auch einem Multiplus+ATS ist dann eine Generatoreinbindung möglich.

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it can perfectly use this as genes input, only the grid code makes the unit reject the voltage coming from it as this isn't as stabile as a grid. On all others configurations the generator can be used. At some grid codes the LOM can be adjusted per input so also then the voltage from a genes will be accepted
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renne avatar image renne markus ♦♦ commented ·

@mvader (Victron Energy)

Hi Matthijs,

is ESS + genset a software-only problem with the Quattro-II or are there hardware limitations?

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markus avatar image markus ♦♦ Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·
@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

We were able to get a Quattro2 allowed by a local EVU, to be used for a ESS installation in AT, by selecting the non existent AT Tor Erzeuger grid code in VeConfigure and using external anti islanding hardware.

BR

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renne avatar image
renne answered ·

@Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff)

There is no CE certification document in the download area of the Quattro-II.

Does this mean there is no CE certification???

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mrfrodo avatar image
mrfrodo answered ·

No answer is also an answer.

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