question

newbflat avatar image
newbflat asked

Smartshunt 500A, Redarc BCDC trends odd readings.

Freshly installed Redarc 1250D 50A charger and solar mppt charger. All seemed fine, i think... but today odd things happened. Watching the trends in the app I have noticed periodic amp > 0 (not voltage) dropouts every 2 min or so. With just a 170what solar panel they last for about 5 seconds and it starts back up as normal. When the engine is run and and I’m getting 50 amps to the leisure battery the dropouts are instant. Again, just amperage, voltage shows un effected. I have asked Redarc about this and they haven’t responded yet. Then today I was monitoring the trend and the amps AND volts went nuts spiking 13.6 volts and 45A to 13.35 volts and 8A or so.... multiple times a second for severial min and then in an instant back to a steady 50A and 13.65 volts. Nothing changed during this amperage “flutter“... I didn’t turn anything on or off.

Does anyone have a Redarc BCDC charger monitored with a Smartshunt? Does anything look familiar? I will post some photos...


First picture is normal solar only Input (clown day) with regular amperage dropouts, then I started the car and it spikes to 50A charging... you can see the regular amp drops...

Second picture is the weird “flutter” .. and then going back to regular 50A charging.

FYI... 300A Relion lifepo4 about half charged..

89aed7b3-4511-4f8d-bb89-a6525475dc05.png
883a72ae-7010-406b-bc26-139eea429f65.png

SmartShunt
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3 Answers
netrange avatar image
netrange answered ·

internal or external BMS installed ? ...

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newbflat avatar image newbflat commented ·

Hmm.... just the Redarc 1250D BCDC charger hooked up the Relion RB300-LT battery.


Relion says “Simply plug the battery into the regular lithium charger and the internal heating and monitoring system takes care of the rest.”

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netrange avatar image
netrange answered ·

Looks like it is a dc/dc Booster like the victron Orion ... Try to messure the Voltage on the Input ... I think that your 12V "Carside" goes down and the booster switch to Safety Mode ... and come back again ... How much Current does your Generator have?

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newbflat avatar image newbflat commented ·

The alternator is putting out 14.9 volts. The voltage at the charger input is 14.3.

The alternator is a big one at 320A... It produces way more than enough at idle.

specs for the charger are...”


Input Voltage 9 - 32VDC, Output Voltage 12VDC, Maximum Charging Voltage 15.3V, Output Current Rating (Cont.) 50A, Output Power 750W, Input Fuse Rating 60A, Output Fuse Rating 60A, Length (in) 6.50, Width (in) 4.72, Height (in) 1.46, Warranty 2 Years, Weight (lb) 2.3, Standby Current Draw <8mA,

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abucas01 avatar image
abucas01 answered ·

@Newbflat. I have the same issue with my 1250D. Mine is installed in a Landcruiser 200 charging a 100Ah Lithium, and I also have a 170W Solar on the roof.
After discussions with Redarc (who blame the Victron BMV for not been quick enough to accurately read the V & A values - see discussion below) I eventually concluded that it is an issue to do with their so called 'Green Power' capability of the device. Basically the unit will take what ever Solar power is available first, and top this up to the maximum output power using your car alternator.

What I discovered is that on bright sunny days, with the solar panel able to operate with a steady output, the BCDC unit output a stable Voltage and Current close to its rated output (I was getting around 48A). However on cloudy overcast days, I would get the severe saw toothing output that you show in your picture. If I immediately blocked the solar panel from the sun (drive under carport), the output of the unit would instantly stabilise.

So my conclusion is/was, that on very low output currents of the solar panel (ie in very poor sun) the BCDC unit is struggling to get a stable MPPT signal and constantly switches between 2 modes 1) all power from the alternator, and 2) trying to grab some from the solar panel with alternator top up.

My solution is to put an ignition switched relay on the solar input line so that when the car is on, No solar is available. I asked myself what is the point of trying to add a tiny bit of solar power to replace some alternator power - answer none.


Below these comments I have included the Redarc reply to my query.

You should note, they try to tell me the unit is current limiting to protect the battery. Firstly it's a Lithium and its rated to up to 100A charge current. Secondly the unit is only outputting around 36A, so nowhere near its maximum.

I called them on this, and showed that it was related to the solar panel in full/overcast conditions.

They didn't really relent on their belief that it is a BMV monitoring issue, but did offer to change my unit over to another unit with later firmware. (for your information - REDARC gear is not firmware upgradable for end users).

I took them up on the offer, but the replacement unit misbehaved exactly the same, so I now simply block the Solar panel.

This post is not a put down of REDARC BCDC chargers, they are a very compact weather proofed unit (can be installed in the engine bay) come in a range of outputs, and include a very good MPPT controller when operating with Solar only. Its the attempt to go GREEN I think is the issue.


REDARC Reply

Thank you for your enquiry.

What you are seeing is based on the timing of sample points, rather than an RMS current output.

As the BCDC reaches current limit for example it will drop off and then ramp back up again in order to charge the battery without damaging itself or providing too much current, and the reading your meter is showing is a very “slow” look at what is actually occurring.

The RMS current output throughout this process is actually somewhat visible in the graph, but cannot really be viewed accurately without an RMS meter (line drawn on graph is close to accurate). Once this current limiting is no longer required, you see the graph then smooth out.

thumbnail.jpg


Now adding the MPPT solar factor into this, and you have quite a complex variation that may look rather erratic based on the sample points the meter is showing, as the MPPT regulator is also searching up and down the solar voltage range for the maximum power point (the BCDC engineer said this is very common viewing on the Victron meter and was not at all surprised or concerned for your charger!).


thumbnail.jpg (14.9 KiB)
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JohnC avatar image JohnC ♦ commented ·
What Redarc are really saying is that the BMV/Smartshunt doesn't sample fast enough to pick up every spike. Obviously they're using pwm for that 'Green Power', and a slightly lower V-target so it won't interfere with the mppt setting and confuse it too. Calling it 'RMS' just means they're averaging it in theory.

This is pretty soppy stuff, and I'm glad I don't own one.

I don't know of any Victron kit that would attempt to pwm into a relatively stable supply source, even if it's varying with sunlight.


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newbflat avatar image newbflat commented ·

Thanks abicus01... that’s very interesting and I will do a little solar testing to see if it’s the same for me. I’m NOT happy to here that it’s not for we’re upgradable my the end user, I wouldn’t have bought it if I had known that. They will be herring from me tomorrow and I will be very interested in what the say. I’m curious about the other drops in voltage and amps every 2 min or so. It happens with or with out the engine on, maybe that was explained and I didn’t understand... this is all a bit above my pay grade. So are Redarc suggesting that the rapid vamp and voltage from and spike is ok, nothing to worry about and it’s not an issue?.. only a reading/display issue? I’m a little confused by there response.


Here is another example of what was going on. Only about 1.5A coming in from solar at the time. Truck Idling...13e1669b-35bc-4db6-b2df-f21dd9709263.png

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abucas01 avatar image abucas01 newbflat commented ·

@Newbflat The regular periodic drop in V/A spike you are seeing is 'normal' - From the manual

1.6 Battery Test Mode The unit features a battery test mode which occurs every 100 seconds. The test mode is designed to both test that the input conditions are still met and check for the presence of a battery on the output of the unit

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newbflat avatar image newbflat abucas01 commented ·
Oh, I missed that.. thanks for pointing that out.


I headed out yesterday and with the solar plugged on it was showing the rapid jumps in voltage/ amperage much of the time. After 30 min or so I unplugged the solar and for the most part I the issue went away. there was a dress 30 seconds of smoothing similar but only about an 8 amp fluctuation. It did it twice about 5 min apart and settled into straight charging until the battery was full. So yes, it does seem to be associated with the solar charger/ green mode. I will call them today and see what they say.

thanks.

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