question

Jonathan Contre avatar image
Jonathan Contre asked

Can 2 multipluses be wired in parallel to provide double charging and inverting capacity?

Help! I’m about to buy 2 120v 3000w inverter chargers for my boat refit. Until this morning I believed I could parallel both the charging and inverting functions. This morning I read on this forum that this is not possible.

I.E. in a parallel installation only one charge current would be sent to the batts even if both are plugged in to shore power. Is this correct?

I’m building an inverter based boat that will have all AC powered through the inverter so it’s very important to me that the batteries get the most current possible on shore power.

Also, when paralleled and on shore power can I only use the input from one multiplus?

On my boat I have dual 30 amp shore inputs which I was planning on running one to the first multi and the second to the second multi. Then paralleling the output (pass through or inverter power) into ONE AC panel (50amps). Will this work?

Please help!!!

multiplus in parallel
6 comments
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the-doon avatar image the-doon commented ·

I connected 2 Multiplus-II’s together recently and can confirm that both units need the AC in on at the same time or neither unit will accept any power in. I originally had a circuit breaker below each multi and didn’t realise I’d bumped one of them to off. The Multi’s relay clicks as usual but clicks straight back out again and the AC in is rejected. Once I’d realised the circuit breaker was off and then reset all went well.

Technically I think you could use 2 shore power inputs BUT I think you’d be asking for trouble, as stated below if you ended up with power from 2 different phases you’d damage the Multis.

What sort of charge current are you after that you couldn’t pull from one shore power lead?

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Kevin Windrem avatar image Kevin Windrem the-doon commented ·

Even if the two shore powers are on the same phase, any voltage difference will cause huge current flows through the Multis!

Victron explains in great detail how precise wiring needs to be on both the input and output of parallel Multis so it's unlikely you could satisfy these requirements with separate shore power connectors.

I'll repeat Victron's caution: Design and installation of multi-phase and parallel systems should be attempted by trained persons. There is a training video at professional.victron.com that HELPS but doesn't cover everything you need to know to do this safely.

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the-doon avatar image the-doon commented ·

They are talking about the battery cables when referring to the input cables.

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Kevin Windrem avatar image Kevin Windrem the-doon commented ·

In the case of parallel inverter/chargers, equal length/size cables applies to battery cables, AC input cables and AC output cables. It's the only mechanism to balance current between the paralleled units.

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the-doon avatar image the-doon commented ·

Apologies.

Just had a read of wiring unlimited and you are correct, it says to make the AC in the same length as well. I didn’t even consider this as I only use my AC in for charging as I’m off grid. Can see the merit in grid tied systems where you have full load passing through the units.

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Hi All, The Multi plus has a Bi-directional converter onboard controlled by a controlboard. When paralleling two units (single phase) the control signals from the master will also end up at the second (slave) , or third, fourth ect.

This means they need the exact same power to works with as they are acting 100% equal. So bot DC cabling AND AC cabling needs to be symmetrical to have a balance of power among the units.

Two "different" AC inputs is not possible, also two battery banks isnt possible.

When the input is splitphase or even three phase the wiring as far as being symatrical isnt that critical anymore as the phases wont be equal anyway. But the phaseshift is , so also there you can only work with a single input source AC wise.

What is possible is that you have the AC output joined, a single battery in use BUT have a AC source to one unit and another to the other unit.

If you then would de-select SWITCH AS GROUP in the VE Bus system configure the unit dont switch together anymore but act as transferswitch. So then one of the two AC sources will be used and only that unit wil go in passthrough. BUT as the units are hardwired on the output the both will charger on a single input! So two 24/3000/70A units will be able to charge 140A to the battery, but using the energy for this from a single AC shore line.

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5 Answers
Pieter Boomsma avatar image
Pieter Boomsma answered ·

As long as they are from the same model and type number it will work. This means its best to order them from the same year. Older ones can be slightly different which makes it impossible to combine them

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Kevin Windrem avatar image
Kevin Windrem answered ·

One approach would be to split your AC loads between the two shore power inlets and run the Multis completely independently. You'd still be able to parallel the battery connections to a common battery bank and have both Multis charge the batteries.

Another approach would be to use separate chargers and inverters. For example two Phoenix chargers, one on each shore power inlet, a common battery bank then any number of Phoenix chargers to meet your load requirements running in parallel. The down side to this is there is no pass-thru or assist. Loads are always powered by the inverter. A big plus however is the Phoenix charger accepts 90-265 volts and 45-65 Hz so your boat would easily accommodate shore power anywhere in the world.

[moderator's note: edited to remove incorrect information - JC]

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Justin Cook avatar image
Justin Cook answered ·

@Jonathan Contre, yes, this is absolutely possible, and quite routinely done. If possible, please provide a link to the thread you saw stating that this was not possible, as we'd like to correct that information.

For reference, please see the Parallel and 3-Phase VE.Bus Systems Manual and the several external documents referenced therein; as noted by others, there are several requirements, such as matched units (be sure to tell your authorized Victron dealer that you're planning this type of setup so they can be sure the units are matched) but, aside from a bit of added complexity in wiring and programming, it's entirely common to do what you're planning and it works perfectly!

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marekp avatar image
marekp answered ·

You can to use 2 separate shore AC inputs, one for each MP, but you need 2 separate circuits on your boat.

Outputs from those 2 MP's cannot be connected together.

Both MP's can charge the same battery, but they cannot be used in the parallel setup on the AC side.


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Joshua Warren avatar image
Joshua Warren answered ·

Firstly, I'm an RV guy and not a boat guy, so I'm not very familiar with shore power hookups at docks -- take the following with a grain of salt.


When you say "dual 30 amp shore inputs," are you talking about two separate receptacles that each expect 30A/120VAC input?


If so, it's going to get complicated, because if you're docked somewhere and are looking at two separate 30A/120VAC outlets there's probably no expectation that the two "line" conductors (one from each outlet) are either on the same phase or opposite phases. If you could guarantee that those two outlets' line conductors were bonded upstream and hence were on the same phase, you could set up the Multis for parallel operation. On the other hand, if you could guarantee that the two line conductors were on opposite phases, you could set them up in split-phase operation and that would also be fine. But there's no reason to expect either situation to be the case when looking at a pair of 30A/120VAC outlets; they could be in phase, 180 degrees out of phase, or 120 degrees out of phase (if each outlet was on a separate leg of a three-phase system). You'd really have no idea, and even if you determined this, you'd have to do some pretty clunky reconfiguring of the inverters (in software) to accommodate the input phase configuration. Not a great idea.


Also, a cautionary note about putting Multis in parallel (same phase input) and supplying independent circuits or bus bars. In parallel operation, the Multis expect their output line conductors to be bonded together downstream; i.e., they have continuity. If you have power assist enabled in such a scenario, then when the load exceeds the input current limit, both inverters will briefly step up their voltage to overcome the instantaneous demand. But if their outputs are supplying separate circuits or bus bars that do not have continuity, what will happen when the load exceeds the input current limit is that the circuit or bus bar without the increased demand (imagine an air conditioner overcoming its locked-rotor amperage) will actually experience an overvoltage fault and the inverter on that phase will likely shut off completely.


I spent around $15k on my RV's power system and used all Victron components and connected everything by-the-book, and even some of the very basic claimed functionality is not currently working (for example, my Multis are only drawing 23A despite the input current limit being set to 30A, and thus unnecessarily draining my batteries to power a 29A load), so before you do anything that does not reflect a completely standard implementation I suggest you actually see the same configuration working as you expect on someone else's rig before you invest in any components.


Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.


Edit: If you set up the inverters for split-phase input and they wind up on single-phase input (i.e. the two 30A outlets you're plugged into are not 180 degrees out of phase), what will happen is that only the primary inverter will accept grid input. The second inverter will reject it and invert from the batteries. This may be okay for your application, because the first inverter will charge the 12VDC side as the second inverts, so continuous operation without battery discharge is possible -- but only up to the charging capacity of the primary inverter, which is 120A VDC. That's around 1500 watts, but after conversion losses, you'll really only get ~1200 watts of continuously usable power on L2. Any draw in excess of that will result in battery discharge. If your continuous loads on L2 are significantly below that threshold you should be fine.

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Kevin Windrem avatar image Kevin Windrem commented ·

I'm not sure with separate 30 amp inputs you can even guarantee the circuits have the same neutral, or that the neutral voltages are the same due to currents in other parts of the venue.

The only way to safely accommodate two separate inputs is to keep both hot and neutral paths independent all the way to the loads. With a little thought this is totally possible.

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Joshua Warren avatar image Joshua Warren Kevin Windrem commented ·

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of the neutrals being isolated.


In this guy's case (sounds like he's sending two inputs to one 50A panel, with each input going, presumably, to a different side?), the neutrals would be joined together at the panel, which would be pretty bad if the incoming neutrals had a relative voltage difference. So to deal with the possibility that they're isolated upstream you'd have to have two separate neutral bus bars in that panel.


From what was described, it sounds like the only way to do this (without rewiring the rest of the boat) is to have two completely separate and non-interacting inverters; I don't think there's any way to configure the pair to handle this situation and have it "just work." As to whether or not the two inverters could share a battery bank, I don't quite know.

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Kevin Windrem avatar image Kevin Windrem Joshua Warren commented ·

I was thinking the same thing about a separate neutral bar in the AC distribution panel.

DC and AC circuits inside the Multi are isolated from each other so this shouldn't be a problem.

The fact that the neutrals in the two Multis are not connected should't prevent a dual Multi system from working.

Multi inverter configuration allows for a "floating" L2 phase and I think that should handle any condition regarding the two separate shore power inlets: on phase, 180 degree split-phase and two legs of 3 phase power at 120 degrees.


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Joshua Warren avatar image Joshua Warren Kevin Windrem commented ·

Well, sadly, that is not so. I actually just tried all variants of 120, 180, and 240 degree phase offsets using L2 floating with and without "return to original phase" (six variants), and none of them will recognize a 0-degree phase offset L2 (L1 and L2 bonded). What's interesting is that all of the 120/240 phase offset configurations accept the 180-degree phase offset. Maybe they only accept the second input if its phase shift is within some threshold of the specified input?

I feel that this is a major piece of functionality that is missing from these components, and it is clearly the sort of thing that could be implemented via software but Victron flat-out-refuses to do so. Given the complexity of the software and the number of blinking lights this is inexcusable, and I don't think I'd have purchased all this equipment (nearly $15k worth of batteries, inverters, MPPTs, and supporting hardware) had I been aware of this apparently deliberate limitation.

Back on topic, I hope this fellow is reading these comments and does not blindly accept the oversimplified affirmative answers to his question. And on that note, having two neutrals coming off a single neutral bus bar is actually quite dangerous unless the main breaker on that panel is sized such that a single neutral can carry the full breaker current. Otherwise, if one of the neutrals was disconnected upstream of the panel, the remaining one could be overloaded.

OP, if you're out there, maybe you can provide some more details and we can be of better help.

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