Does a hybrid inverter clean line power?

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andreacoppini asked Dec 9, '19

Does a hybrid inverter clean line power?

I’m looking at starting a solar setup in my new home out in the woods and since I had a great experience with the little Victron MPPT 75/15 in my boat I want to use Victron as the heart of my setup.

I have line power in the house, but it’s very dirty. Voltage rises and falls continuously between 210 and 250, and I often get very short brownouts during the day (lights flash, router and computer reboots).

my question is, if I start with a hybrid inverter but only hook it up to batteries and line power (no solar yet), would this protect my home from the line power? In other words, does the inverter simply pass through line power when it is present and there is no solar input (like a “line interactive UPS”) Or does it use the line power as a power source and ‘rebuild’ the power to my house (like a “on line UPS”)?

battery charging installation

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered · Dec 09, 2019 at 04:51 PM

Hi @andreacoppini

If the grid is bad, it might be best to use a separate charger to charge the batteries when necessary (if you have enough solar power this might only be needed on 'dark days'), and an inverter (or Multi) to create nice clean AC power.

This way you protect your house system against the fluctuating grid. turning the charger on / off could be done like you'd turn on a generator, with either an assistant in the Multi, or with a GX device (the latter is a lot easier to program or change)

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JohnC answered · Dec 10, 2019 at 04:11 AM

Hi Andrea.

The Multis/Quattros will passthrough mains 'unconditioned', but are actually very particular about what they will accept at all before doing that. By design to protect downstream ac kit.

This 'fussiness' is adjustable to some degree, but I've never seen it to the point where noticeable via light flickers, etc. In a brownout it should seamlessly reject the mains and replace with batt-inverted power. Then revert to mains when the issue passes. (And pump the batts back up if set to do that).

The real issue you may face whilst this is happening in the background, is actually knowing where your power is coming from. Nope, no alarm bells, sirens or light-flickers to warn..

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andreacoppini commented · Dec 10, 2019 at 07:28 PM

Thanks. This is what I thought (but I worry that this is what I wanted to hear!). So the follow up question is - would a Quattro/Multi experience more wear and tear than what it’s designed for, thereby shortening its lifespan?

at the moment I have a 10kVA servo stabilizer which seems to do a half decent job at maintaining the voltage level since it kicks in every few seconds or so, but I’m annoyed by the noise it makes and the fact that it doesn’t protect from outages.

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JohnC ♦ andreacoppini commented · Dec 11, 2019 at 02:03 AM

Yeh, when the M or Q rejects/accepts it will throw relay(s). Mechanical devices, so maybe wear'n'tear could be an issue. They can be quite loud too, so if this is happening frequently may drive you crazy.

So not all good news, but better you know now than complain later. Should fix your brownout issue though..

Just thinking aloud now. If you had a GX box too, and especially www linked to VRM portal, your line-in could be logged for V, A and Hz (down to per-minute intervals). Might be useful.

This problem is akin to a generator being rejected, and it's not uncommon to see this occur. I mentioned adjustability earlier, and it's detailed here: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/multiplus_faq

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered · Dec 11, 2019 at 10:07 AM

Guys, a lot of writing here, but really, the only way to protect your location against such a bad grid is to do a double conversion, so a separate charger and inverter.

when only occasional brown-outs happen, setting the disconnect levels tighter can also be sufficient (the system will disconnect the grid earlier then) but if the grid fluctuates continuously than a double conversion is the way to go.

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Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2019-12-09T13:30:14Z

wkirby answered · Dec 09, 2019 at 01:30 PM

The MultiPlus / Quattro range pass through the mains power whenever it is present.

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Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented · Dec 09, 2019 at 03:35 PM

...and if it is within the specified range. ;)

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grid.png (8.3 KiB)

Answer 2 · 2019-12-09T17:33:32Z

andreacoppini answered · Dec 09, 2019 at 05:33 PM

@M.Lange what is that screenshot from (sorry this is all new to me)? And what is the transfer switch like? Will sensitive devices like TVs or computers get damaged or rebooted each time there is a transfer?

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) thanks for the info, that means I will need a charger and an inverter large enough to handle all my loads all the time... let’s make it more fun - My supply is three phase!

What products would you recommend I look at?

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Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented · Dec 09, 2019 at 06:06 PM

The screenshot is from VE.Config, the tool to program you VE.Bus devices.

The transfer switch will switch in less than 20ms.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented · Dec 09, 2019 at 07:22 PM

Hi @andreacoppini

That depends on what you want to run (the loads)

Your distributor should be able to advice you properly on that.

You can use one, two or three single phase chargers (depending on how much charging power you really need, as they can charge continuously at a steady rate, you might not need very much)

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kai ♦ commented · Dec 11, 2019 at 08:10 AM

Most PC power supplies do stick to ATX specs and will have hold up time in the vicinity of 16ms (from loss of AC to loss of DC outputs at full load). If the transfer occurs before the hold up time expires, the "typical" PC should ride through the changeover.

This is just background info fyi. For the specifics of your loads, someone (either you, your Victron vendor or your load vendor will have do some investigation).

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