3 phase quattros single phase shore power

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reid-dyer asked Feb 23, '24

3 phase quattros single phase shore power

Hey all. First time here. I have a system I purchased through alte. I'm trying to get some clarity on how my configuration will work as I was told (or if it will) and with that how exactly to wire it. I'll list my system components here. I know there will be more questions and answers which I will probably need to ask in a seperate thread. Here's goes. This is a house. I have 27 panels that output nominal 10kw. Combined in 3's for 9 strings to a combiner box. 2 circuits from combiner box to 2 victron charge controllers (4 strings on 1 circuit, 5 on the other). I have three 5kw quattros intended for use in a parallel 3 phase setup. I have 3 kilovault hab LiFePo 7.5kw batteries for a total of 22.5kw storage. The kicker...I have standard 240 volt single phase shore power (America, 60hz). I also want to have a back up generator not purchased yet. NO DESIRE TO SELL BACK TO GRID!! I ultimately don't want to rely on the grid connection at all but i do want the option. I also have a hydroelectric plant my dad built that will be added in the future. The hydro power will most likely be converted to dc and input the system through charge controllers to deal with fluctuation issues, this is at this point rather irrelevant to my question. How do I wire the Inverters as far as my ac grid power coming in and the generator ac power as well. I understand in battery use only that the inverters will work together in creating 3 phase. What I haven't got an answer to is how they will work along with grid/generator power present in terms of pass through voltage. Thanks to whomever can help.

3 phase

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delf67 answered · Feb 23 at 05:18 PM

To clarify, is you grid 240V single phase or 240/120V split phase? And are your Quatros 230V or 2x 120V?

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reid-dyer commented · Feb 23 at 05:44 PM

I'm in north carolina. North America so everything here is split phase 240/120 I assume is the correct term. 240 leg to leg. 120 leg to ground/neutral. My quattros are 48/5000/70 and output 120 leg to neutral. 2 ac inputs and 2 ac outputs allowed. One ac output is deactivated on battery only operation and limited to 50 amps when in use. Hope this answers the question

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delf67 reid-dyer commented · Feb 23 at 06:46 PM

Hi, yes split phase rather than single phase (2 "hots" vs L & N), your original post confused a bit.

And you are intending to set up the 3 Quattros in a 3 phase 120/208V system or parallel 15kVA 120V (you say parallel 3 phase, so again I'm a bit confused).

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reid-dyer delf67 commented · Feb 23 at 07:12 PM

Yes I'm sorry. I'm having to relearn the terminology for the power generation world. We never hear the word split phase here. We just say 120, 240 single phase or 240 3 phase. And yes i want a 120/208 setup. Again I'm sorry, by parallel I meant synced together for 3 phase generation. All of our larger appliances (heat pump, ovens, electric water heaters etc.) are single phase or 3 phase and all our smaller appliances (hair dryer, toaster, tv, refrigerators) are 120 volts. All residential stuff here is single phase but I have a refrigeration & hvac company so I have access to 3 phase equipment that I wish to implement if possible.

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delf67 reid-dyer commented · Feb 23 at 08:20 PM

No, that's fine, I just want make sure I understand what you're trying to achieve.

Because the 2x 120V hots on your grid input are 180 degrees out of phase you're not going to be able to use both legs into your 3 phase inverter system.

The only way I can see that this would work is by only using one hot leg into one of the inverters. The other 2 inverters would continue to provide the other two phases. This does limit you to half your grid supply and you only get 1/3 of your possible charging power which is not ideal. Depending on the load, the phase 2 & 3 inverters could be drawing more from the batteries than the phase 1 charger is putting in.

Would the generator you're thinking of be 240V single (split) or 240V 3 phase (120/208)?

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delf67 answered · Feb 24 at 12:51 PM

To be perfectly honest, sticking with a split phase config would definitely be the easiest as it suits most of your loads, your grid connection and your genny. It's just getting the 3-phase out is more equipment and more $$$!

You could use the third inverter stand alone, whatever suits your setup best I suppose. Presumably you would still feed one leg of your grid (or genny) connection into the stand alone one, so would probably make more sense to join the ac outs too and just combine all 3 as one asymmetric split-phase system (so 2 inverters on one leg and one on the other).

The smartshunt would just monitor everything going in and out of the battery, so it won't care if you have a separate stand alone inverter, but I'm not sure if the stand alone one could be connected on the same VE.bus network as your 2 split-phase Quattros and your Cerbo?

You're welcome. I'm happy to try and help anyone that's trying to reduce their reliance on the grid- a very wise move with the way the world seems to be going!

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2024-02-23T23:55:29Z

reid-dyer answered · Feb 23 at 11:55 PM

Yeah the guy told me it would work but I wasn't sure how. I should have researched more. I was just gonna do two 10kw quattros and abandon the 3 phase idea or just use a stand alone rotary converter for 3 phase when needed and now i wish i had. 3 phase generator would be nice if I have the 3 phase but single phase 230 generators are cheaper and more readily available. I actually have a generac whole home 20kw single phase 230 volt generator that we got from a customer I had planned on using if I didn't get the 3 phase one but I really don't want to rely on it a bunch. I did have the thought that if I have to abandon the 3 phase I could use 2 of my inverters to create standard 240/120 split phase and the 3rd for dedicated 110 volt application only. I just have no idea on what that would involve software / monitoring wise with my victron smart shunt and monitoring controls. I purchased the cerbo gx and gx touch 50 display when i got all this. I will have a propane range, water heater and clothes dryer. My electrical consumptions are a heat pump (largest load) and then refrigerator/freezer and counter top appliances like a microwave, crock pot or coffee pot. I'll do some math but at 42 max amps per leg off each inverter I should be fine. plus the ability to have pass through shore power at every inverter I think I would be just fine. By the way I've never really talked on a forum before and I really appreciate u taking the time to respond amd answer questions.

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Answer 2 · 2024-02-24T14:57:16Z

reid-dyer answered · Feb 24 at 02:57 PM

Ok I'll get to work on it. I may start a seperate question to keep it separated about the control side of things. Yeah having some available independence is my main goal. We can't control the future but we plan for what we can, the best we can, and work with the hand we're dealt. I do have another question if i could. Is it true that the 2 ac outs are the same power supply, just thay one runs through a 50 amp max relay and is severed during battery only mode. And with that can you dictate how much load can actually run through the ac outs. I know I have a lot of studying to do and videos to watch when it comes to programming everything so I'm not gonna ask u to explain it all. I don't plan on having any loads high enough to really matter but I'm not so sure with my setup I'll really want to use the switchable 50 amp ac out if this is true because I really want to use as little from the grid as I can and create a setup and lifestyle that facilitates that. Last thing for u and the forum. Do I need to like or accept the different answers in our conversation. I have no idea how all this works.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Feb 25 at 02:36 PM

It helps when members mark an answer accepted, or multiple answers, if they individually helped solve the issue.

If it is a comment, you can choose "convert to answer" and then accept it.

We will typically then close a topic.

Best break out a new question or issue, it makes it easier for someone else to locate it.

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Answer 3 · 2024-02-24T18:56:21Z

delf67 answered · Feb 24 at 06:56 PM

The main ac out is fed by either the grid/ genny through a transfer relay, or by the inverter when there is nothing on either of the two inputs. The second out is only fed by grid/ genny but not fed by the inverter.

You can set a limit on each of the ac inputs independently upto 100A (the rating of the transfer relays in a 5000VA Quattro). Both inputs feed both outputs.

You will also need a USB to VE.bus MK3 dongle and the VEconfig software to configure the Quattros.

As to the forum, not really sure. I've only ever liked individual posts.

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Answer 4 · 2024-02-25T13:41:00Z

reid-dyer answered · Feb 25 at 01:41 PM

Ahh ok. So the 2nd ac output never sends inverter power. So to be clear anything hooked to those outputs will consume grid or genny power only. That good to know.

I think i have the dongle as well. I'm out of town but returning today and will check.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Feb 25 at 02:38 PM

By default, yes.

AC2 out is just relay coupled to AC1. Without grid, the relay opens. You can actually force it to close with assistants, via veconfigure programming, so that AC2 out operates without grid, under specific conditions. There are topics on this subject already that may help.

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Answer 5 · 2024-02-25T15:10:32Z

reid-dyer answered · Feb 25 at 03:10 PM

Cool. Thanks everybody. All my wire and connectors should be in tomorrow and I hope to get on it this week. I'll download veconfigure and get familiar with it as well. If I have any questions I can't specifically find in the forum or on the videos should I start a new question or continue on this thread. Again I apologize, this is the first time I've ever used a forum and I do wanna respect how its supposed to be used. I do have to find out how to setup my 3rd inverter ( it appears my 3 phase desires aren't the best idea) either as stand alone or can I have uneven slaves/followers controlled and accessed as 1 group doing 240/120 split phase as previously discussed. Thanks again.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Feb 25 at 03:49 PM

Rather open a new topic for the next question.

We only have issues with duplicates and our welcome page asks that we keep each topic to a specific subject.

You’ll get the hang of it easy enough. But if unsure, have a look at the guidelines by clicking on the “home” icon top left.

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