Inverter RS 48/6000 Smart vs MultiPlus II 48/5000/70-50

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fancourt asked Sep 2, '22

Inverter RS 48/6000 Smart vs MultiPlus II 48/5000/70-50

Just trying to make sure I fully understand the benefits and rationale behind the Inverter RS/6000 Smart vs sticking with the tried-and-tested MultiPlus II.

Are there any videos or other training material I've missed explaining the reasons for the shift to HF inverters away from the old LF technology?

The Victron marketing and training material used to highlight the benefits of LF inverters over HF ones, but I haven't seen anything yet explaining why that situation has now been reversed with the introduction of the RS series?

As best I can tell the only practical benefits of choosing the "Inverter RS 48/6000 Smart" over the "MultiPlus II 48/5000/70-50 are:

- 6000VA/4800-5300W (batt voltage dependent) vs 5000VA/4000W 'continuous' @ 25 deg C
- 100A battery charger vs 70A
- 11kg vs 30kg
Am I missing anything else?
I haven't seen any explanation for why Victron have changed their tune on HF being inferior to LF inverters for reliability?
I may have missed a press release or training video, if so I'd be grateful is someone could point me to a link...

Multiplus-II inverter rs

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered · Sep 03, 2022 at 05:59 AM

Hi @fancourt,

Victron is not the kind of company to sit around once we have a good product.

We are constantly trying new power electronics designs, and while sad to say not all of them will make it out of the R&D lab and into production, occasionally a new design does bring something significantly new and worth putting our name to (see your list).

We now believe the new design of the RS meets the reliability standard that we set for ourselves, and that our customers expect.

The RS still has a long way to go before it will have earned the same tried and true reputation of the transformer based MultPlus. We expect most customers will continue with transformer based models for many years to come.

Building this reputation just takes time in different real world conditions. So far at least the limited number RS units in the field are doing really well (after a few early bumps along the way).

The RS design gives us new opportunities for new products that we have wanted to make for a long time, but are impractical with LF toroidal transformers (such as high power 3 phase in a single box).

Another couple of benefits for your dot point list

- RS series is quieter - there is no transformer hum.

- ability to have a 450V MPPT integrated in the Solar models (without adding size or weight).

There isn't any extra training for the Inverter RS models (yet), but I did make a training video for the MPPT RS which you might find useful - https://vimeo.com/479705077

We are also still making new transformer based models by the way, so think of it as an expansion of our potential rather than a shift in our direction.

9

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fancourt commented · Sep 03, 2022 at 08:38 AM

Thanks Guy!

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fancourt commented · Feb 06, 2023 at 05:59 PM

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) - just noticed another possible couple of diffferences I'd be grateful if you could comment on?

Based on the efficiency numbers in the Inverter RS datasheet and extrapolating from the published curve for the MultiPlus II 48/3000 (here) as well as looking at the data provided by @Raphael in this thread makes it look like the Inverter RS has better efficiency at high loads without sacrificing anything at low loads, when compared to the MPII?

Secondly, based only on datasheet temperature derating numbers for the two inverters, it appears the Inverter RS suffers from greater output power capacity fade as internal temperature rises:
MPII 48/5000: 4kW@25C/3.7kW@40C/3kW@65C
Inverter RS 48/6000: 4.8-5.3kW(Vbatt dependent)@25C/4.5kW@40C/3kW@65C

Does the old Victron datasheet definition of 'continuous' power rating (for inverters) still hold for this new product line - ie datasheet 'continuous' = 30 minutes and true continuous (subject to suitable ambient temperature and adequate airflow) = datasheet 'continuous' rating / 1.3?

Understanding the latter is obviously particularly crucial when designing systems that will include EVSE running off the inverter...

Another point I've just discovered - it seems the "Factor 1.0" rule doesn't apply consistently to the RS line of inverters as it does to all Victron's previous products?

The datasheet does not specifically say 6000VA is the 30 minute rating - is my assumption that the "6000" in the model name refers to 30 minute VA rating incorrect?

Factor 1.0 Rule states: "The max PV power must be equal or less than the VA rating of the inverter/charger"

However the Multi RS Solar manual states: "If an additional PV grid inverter is connected (max 5000W)..."

Having an AC-coupled PV limit of 5kWp vs 6kWp is quite a difference and departure from the standard Victron definition of the Factor 1.0 Rule.

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Alexandra ♦ fancourt commented · Mar 30, 2023 at 07:34 PM

@fancourt
The RS range is amperage and battery voltage based. Since wattage is volts x amps it is very much related to the battery base.

So if you have a battery like Pylontec that has a lower charge voltage, you restrict the maximum of the inverting power and solar yeild.

I have an RS at home and regularly see and use 5500w loads without issues (not using Pylontec but BYD) we have used the built in mppt and I have a fronius on the output. All works 100%. No glitches to date.

It is a very efficient inverter and exceptionally easy to set up with AC PV since frequency shifting is built in. And really quiet even on a hot day and working hard.

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fancourt Alexandra ♦ commented · Mar 30, 2023 at 10:06 PM

Thanks for the reply. I'm still not clear on the answers to my questions based on your comments though. I'm sure you could regularly use 9000W loads too, so long as they were only for a second or two at a time...

I need to know how these devices cope under continuous loads (eg EVSE).

I am also confused by the apparent exception to the published Factor 1.0 Rule for AC coupled PV, despite no update to the AC Coupling manual being made to highlight or explain this?

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spicedreams Alexandra ♦ commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 04:14 AM

Kia ora @Alexandra , could I just clarify your setup please? You seem to have both a Victron inverter and a Fronius inverter too. Are you inverting with both of them onto the same AC network? If so how do you get them to synchronise the phase of the two inverteres?

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Alexandra ♦ spicedreams commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 04:34 AM

@spicedreams

My fronius is wired on the AC network on the output of the RS inverter. The fronius naturally synchronized to the output.

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spicedreams Alexandra ♦ commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 04:43 AM

Thanks @Alexandra so the AC input of the Fronius syncs from the AC output of the Victron? And the AC current from the Victron gets to appliances via the Fronius?

I should have asked, are you on or off grid?

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Alexandra ♦ spicedreams commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 04:49 AM

@spicedreams

I am mostly off grid. I say this because it is mostly not there. And to be honest dont really need it anymore.

The fronius just injects into the loads.

And no the victron power does not exactly pass through the Fronius. Not like grid does through an inverter.

There is no AC in and AC out on the fronius. Just one AC connection.

Look up the model you want to install and see the connections.

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spicedreams Alexandra ♦ commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 05:21 AM

Thanks again @Alexandra, it's becoming clear. So my current understanding is that the Fronius expects to synchronise to the grid; the Victon will also synchronise to grid when available on its input, and provide synchronisation when the grid is off.

No need to respond, I'm just writing to clarify to myself!

Thanks

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2023-06-24T21:43:27Z

combinationofthis answered · Jun 24, 2023 at 09:43 PM

Is RS suitable for using power tools/pumps as well or should I then stick to other (lf) inverters?

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vintdiesel commented · Jun 26, 2023 at 01:15 AM

I have the same query too. Presently I have a Chinese inverter that is transformerless, and is terrible coping with inrush loads such as water pump starting (I solved with a voltage ramped soft starter). It trips on overcurrent at a drop of a hat. The Victron MPII inverter I have, copes exceptionally well with inrush, so I am interested if the RS is any worse/same or better.

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Alexandra ♦ vintdiesel commented · Sep 23, 2023 at 04:32 AM

I use my borehole and tank pump as well. No soft start or vfd drive.

The peak is within the inverter ability.

My husbands workshop runs off the inverter as well with his compressor welder etc (obviously not all at the same time)

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Answer 2 · 2024-02-13T11:46:56Z

Holger Winkelmann answered · Feb 13 at 11:46 AM

Are the RS Multi 6000 already 3 Phase Capable?

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