question

klohre avatar image
klohre asked

Alternator and DC to DC charger

Hi

Is it possible to connect an Orion TR Smart DC to DC charger directly to an alternator and then to a lithium battery bank in a boat?

I do know that the often recommended solution is to connect via the start battery and/or installing an external regulator.

So those suggestions and other suggestions as to why I want this solution is not relevant.

I only would like to know if it is possible or not. If not, why?

I have tried to reach out to several Victron distributors, seen several online videos (reputable like Jeff Cote) and in particular the online webinar from Victron 22 Jan 2021.

In the latter there is a drawing (at 19:45) that indicates that it is possible, but the voice-over is not fully clear to med.

Hope someone could help, much appreciated!


Best regards

Kai

orion dc-dcalternator
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3 Answers
klim8skeptic avatar image
klim8skeptic answered ·

1, The Orion smart is a battery to battery charger.

2, An alternator will provide rectified, unfiltered DC output, from an AC source. Might not be the ideal input for the Orion,

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klohre avatar image klohre commented ·

Thanks!

Techically it is a DC to DC charger so I assumed, wrongly, that the source of DC input would be irrelevant.

I did not know that the DC input from an alternator would be rectified and unfiltered and hence not suited as an input to the Orion.

Appreciate the feedback!!

Kai

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neptuneuk avatar image
neptuneuk answered ·

@Klohre The following Victron blog post announcing the Orion product line explicitly refers to Alternator to Battery charging and the diagram display seems to fit your use case: https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2019/10/10/new-product-orion-tr-smart-dc-dc-charger/

However it does specifically make reference to smart alternators and dual battery systems.

You would need to satisfy yourself that your use case fits the technical requirements and limmitations of the Orion TR DC-DC.

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kevgermany avatar image kevgermany ♦♦ commented ·
That's specific about dual battery systems with alternators charging the start battery aand the Orion charging the house battery from starter. In effect the starter battery is proving the smoothing/filtering function mentioned by @klim8skeptic



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neptuneuk avatar image neptuneuk kevgermany ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @kevgermany , that was why in my post I in drew attention to that fact:

"However it does specifically make reference to smart alternators and dual battery systems."

What is puzzling about the OP's post is the fact that there seems to be a reluctance to elaborate on why they would wish to exclude the starter battery from the system, and in fact make the system fit the design purpose of the Orion.

The OP stated in para 1:

"battery bank in a boat?" and later "So those suggestions and other suggestions as to why I want this solution is not relevant."

but without providing more details, such as 'I have no starter battery', or 'I am unable to connect with the stater battery because', for example.

It makes answering a question very difficult when posters, for whatever reason seem reluctant to provide complete information about their system or intended use, this can dramatically alter the advice one would give.

It reminds me of a boat related question which was:

"What can I use to ballast my boat"

To which my reply was 'Gold'; it's dense and would take up a small area, but very expensive. You can use feathers; they are cheap but the volume to make the same displaced weight would be huge. The reality is you can use almost anything as ballast, but without a full detailed description of the use case you may not get the answer you were expecting.

As with all things in life the devil is in the detail.

-1 Like -1 ·
docker38 avatar image docker38 neptuneuk commented ·
In my case, the reason why I can not use the starter battery between the alternator and the new LFP house bank is, that the alternator and the housebank is 24V and the starter battery is charged by a separate 12V alternator on another engine. So I'm looking for a solution like 'klohre', instead changing the existing alternator to one with external regulator.
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kevgermany avatar image kevgermany ♦♦ docker38 commented ·
Victron have 12 to 24V DC: DC chargers.
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docker38 avatar image docker38 kevgermany ♦♦ commented ·
Yes, I know. My point is, that my alternator is also 24V and therefore I can't use the starter battery for that set up. I also know that Victron has 24-24V DC-DC charger. My question is now, can such a 24-24V charger be connected directly to the alternator or not. The mauals do not specify that not but all the diagrams show a battery between the alternator and the DC-DC charger.
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kevgermany avatar image kevgermany ♦♦ neptuneuk commented ·
Yes.

I need to ballast my boat. Free samples gratefully accepted. Even half a ton would help.


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Bob K avatar image
Bob K answered ·

@docker38 I'm a little confused about what components are at 12V and what components are at 24V in your system. It sounds like you think you need to make a 12v to 24v conversion or vice versa. I'm just not clear on which way you're looking to convert.

In your setup, is the alternator that you wish to connect to also connected to a battery? If so, then connecting to the + stud on the alternator or the + stud on its associated battery is electrically the same: The + wire from the battery to the alternator is, in effect, just an extension cord.

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docker38 avatar image docker38 commented ·
Basicaly I have a 24V house system, 12V starter batteries are a different circuit and completely separatet from the house system and are not in scope. The 24V house system is charged trough solar and a 24V alternator. As I'm replacing the lead acid house bank with a 24V LFP bank, my concern is with the existing internal regulated 24V alternator and all the issues/risks it has, charging LFP batteries. I'm now looking for a technical solution which match with the existing equipment, instead of quite pricy alternatives, like Balmar etc.. So my question is, can my existing internal regulated 24V alternator be connected directly to a Orion 24-24 DC-DC charger, which then goes to the batteries. If I understand the manual correctly, this would limit the output current from my alternator to a steady value, regardless e.g. the RPM of the engine. What intrigues me is, all the graphics in the Victron manuals show no direct connection. That's the reason of my question.
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Bob K avatar image Bob K docker38 commented ·

"So my question is, can my existing internal regulated 24V alternator be connected directly to a Orion 24-24 DC-DC charger, which then goes to the batteries."

If the 24V alternator output is within the specs listed for the 24V DC Charger, then yes. In other words, if the alternator outputs DC voltage that is within the DC input voltage range of the DC charger and if the alternator is capable of comfortably outputting more current than the DC charger will draw, then the DC charger will work great. Indeed, that is the exact purpose of the DC charger. You'll set the parameters in the DC charger to properly charge your lithium batteries with the correct charging algorithm.

If there is currently a direct connection between your 24V alternator and the 24V house batteries, then you would break that connection and stick the 24V DC charger in it: alternator --> DC charger --> house batteries. This would ensure that the charge going into your new lithium batteries is controlled solely by the smart & healthy DC charger algorithm and that charge isn't bypassing the DC charger through a separate direct connection to the batteries.

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docker38 avatar image docker38 Bob K commented ·
Cooll, thank you for your reply. very helpful.

So, my alternator has a max output of 50a and the Orion 24/24-17 has a max output of 17a that should work, I could even go with a 2nd Orion in parallel to double the output to 34a (as my house bank has a capacity of 460a).

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