What to do if you have nowhere else to turn to?

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Ingo asked Mar 9, '21

What to do if you have nowhere else to turn to?

Let me say that I have an issue with a Victron install and that I've tried to follow the proper support path since day one but I still have the same issue. I've been through two dealers, the local regional management and even, so I was told, level 3 support in NL, none of which could help me.

I don't want to say what different answers I got but all I can say is that a feature on a Quattro/Multi that work wonderful +-3 years ago stopped working as designed +- 2 years ago without it being mentioned in any release notes. All that changed on my side were firmware upgrades to the Quattro/Multi to take advantage of all the latest fixes.

I am totally, totally at my wits end. I used to be extremely angry and frustrated but as of late have given up completely. I even hinted at the possibility of paying for a fix and out of curiosity I looked up the cost of a plane ticket to NL to possibly schedule a mask-to-mask meeting with one of the MD's at Victron Energy just so I can get peace of mind.

Please tell me that I must either just accept this as 'normal' or perhaps someone can give me an Engineer's answer to my problem - I do speak 'light current ohm's and logic' fluently as was my profession for many years until I started talking IP.

Regards,

Ingo

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Charger

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 06:18 AM

@Ingo

It can be alot frustrating when issues like this arise. Maybe with a few more minds here on the community there can ve some help.

What is the feature you wanted that you no longer have?

I am fairly new to Victron products but there are a few long time installers and users here that may be able to help with the older features.

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Ingo Alexandra ♦ commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 06:38 AM

Hi @Alexandra, thanks for replying. I was hoping someone from Victron would take note and just show some interest hence me not initially putting in any details.

So, to make things simple, I have Relay Assistants that looks like the following:

1. Programmable Relay

- Use ACOut 2 relay
- Set relay off
- When AC2 not available for 0 seconds

This assistant above works fine, the load is shed as expected if Grid AC2 IN fails.

2. Programmable Relay (1)
- Use ACOut2 relay
- Set relay on
- When AC2 available for 120 seconds

This assistant above does not work as expected, when Grid power returns the relay switches back On in between 8s and 15s.

When first programming the two assistants the Quattro normally resets, it then correctly takes exactly 120s for ACOut2 relay to engage.

Now if I switch the AC2 input off, as expected, the ACOut2 relay disengages immediately. When I switch the grid on again then AC2 relay switches on between 8s and 15s and not the 120s as programmed. This to me is incorrect and has been verified by two installers with two brand new units out of their own stock and also (possibly) by L3 support in NL but I can't be sure as the discussions between the installer and L3 Support was private, I only heard the outcome.

The above happens every subsequent grid failure where the 120s is ignored, or randomised to between 8s and 15s. Sometimes my Quattro takes 20s to actually sync to the grid which means my 'Heavy Loads' are carried by the battery and causes overload.

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Modifications Space

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Answer 1 · 2021-03-10T07:16:16Z

ewalderasmus answered · Mar 10, 2021 at 07:16 AM

@Ingo,

Not to drag out your issue, but I have had simular issues, quickly, is your grid-connected on ACin 2? Have you tried disabling all assistants? as by default ACout2 is turned off when ACin falls away and returns only 2-3 minutes after it returns. If you have two sources, this is your only solution, the time cannot be adjusted due to the assistant control logic, I havent had anyone from Victron confirm that... but by not receiving an answer I assumed I was correct, especially after many days of trial and error trying to get it to work.

@mvader (Victron Energy) I think his conversation is for you to review, The fact that he is at the point of wanting to fly to NL is extraordinary.

In terms of my own frustration, I cannot understand is why Victron NL does not have a technical support email address or direct contact for people who go through the effort of asking. Fine you want to localize the support, but for those who go to the effort of registering on your professional site and have asked on this forum why isnt there a better support structure. Everyone says "contact your local distributor" but the expertise available is not adequate, this industry is not full of engineers who are technically savy, instead it's installers who simply do not know. I love the product, so don't get me wrong, but I have not enjoyed the support.

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Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 07:42 AM

Hi @EwaldErasmus, Yes, my grid is connected to ACIn2. When removing the assistants then everything works as expected. Me wanting to extend the time delay is part of a bigger project and is only step #1, 120s is an arbitrary number at this stage, it could be longer. If I can't manage to get step #1 to work then then the rest of the project will not work. I do have two sources, the other being a generator.

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ewalderasmus Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:21 AM

Hi @Ingo,

Changing the ACout transfer time is not possible with 2 sources in my opinion.

You can read more here

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/55931/quattro-assistant-setup.html?childToView=59383#answer-59383

Essentially I wanted to make the time shorter... But because the Generator will be on when Mains returns then it will never turn off ACout 2, and exactly as you said overload the batteries during transfer.

This is all possible using some external logic, but its something I would have expected to be able to do internally.

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Ingo ewalderasmus commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:32 AM

@EwaldErasmus I saw your mentioned post and I think I am following it. But, the generator in my case must be manually connected to the Quattro and is not part of this solution at all. It's only there for the zombie apocalypse or when there is an extended outage so the management of ACOut2 relay has no depedence, nor any reference to it. For the purpose of this discussion you can ignore the generator input.

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ewalderasmus Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:39 AM

Lucky fish.

So to give you work around for your problem, You can always use a on delay relay, which will give you the option to manually increase the time on ACout 2. Note it will only increase the time not decrease it.

If you want a quick sketch what I was thinking just ask.

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Ingo ewalderasmus commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:45 AM

I like that we all think like Engineers, a challenge is something we look for. But this shouldn't be be about workarounds and we should put our Business hats on.

That said, I am still an engineer and would like to know what your workaround is - I have an idea when you said 'on delay relay'.

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ewalderasmus Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 09:34 AM

In that case, there is absolutely no need for a sketch.

In terms of components, any industrial delay relay will work, here are two examples:

https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/timer-relays/8966810/

https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/timer-relays/8966813/

Any rated contactor can work, in my opinion, I like it to fail open, so a NO 63A contactor is perfect for this.

If you need anything more just ask.

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Ingo ewalderasmus commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 09:40 AM

Thanks @EwaldErasmus, that's what I thought you might suggest and have also looked at that option way back but alas I have no spare space in the DB.

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Answer 2 · 2021-03-10T07:30:05Z

Paul B answered · Mar 10, 2021 at 07:30 AM

Sometimes things just don't work as you would like and this becomes very frustrating from your point of view.

This is a general community forum and victron helps out from time to time but its mainly other installers and general public in here that are trying to help each other out and pass there experiances along so that others dont have to recreat the wheel every time, and when we get to far off track then some victron staff will also try to help out.

As a suggestion have you thought about adding a external contractor that you can control using K1 or K2 relays or others, that would turn the other loads off or on and thus you are then NOT affected by other hard coded options (if any) that control AC2 out Ie delays etc etc.

When I say hard coded I am referring this as just general programing inside the units.

there is a lot of complexities in the systems and different users want things to work different ways. anyway I am sure you understand the points.

Some other things to try in combination or by them selves

try the relay lock out assistant

or try going back to the OLD firmware that you once had that worked well, and then dont use the new features etc etc

sorry to put my to boobs worth in here if its not appropriate.

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Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 07:51 AM

Hi @Paul B, I understand that this is a community forum but all avenues I tried eventually ended to be a dead-end street.

Yes, I tried the K1 and K2 relays and the behavior is the same. With this I mean that the mechanism to delay the 'On' of whichever control circuit you use probably forms part of the same software routine, it's only the output circuits that differ between K1, K2 and ACOut2 relays.

I tried going back as far as the firmware allows me to go and as I recall 433 was the earliest one I could find. With older firmware comes a few other issues. When using the latest VEConfig it actually tells you that the firmware is too old and that you need to upgrade. Using an older VEConfig it allows you to program the unit but when trying to add an assistant it again tells you that VEConfig needs to be upgraded to load the assistants - it's a mechanism used by all software houses to prevent you from using too old and outdated software which might contain hidden vulnerabilities and bugs - which I have no issue with, but Yes, I tried everything.

Unfortunately if I do get hold of the VERY old firmware then I will be missing out on all the enhancements and fixes to the features I use today (ESS) that I did not use right in the beginning. I personally would not want to go back to that old firmware.

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Paul B Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:01 AM

So you are happy to stop using the AC2 out output and move the AC gear you have connected to a external contractor and then turn this contractor on and off via assistants that control the K1 relay.

If so then I cant see this being a issue and we can all help you setup the assistants to make this work.

this way for one thing we remove any issues that maybe hidden in the ac2 OUT CIRCUIT, and if we find other issues with the assistants then they can be worked on one at a time. So do you want to give this a try. It will require the purchase of a external contractor.

I mean a solution is what you are after and how you get it does not really matter.

Also have you tried using the General flag setting to Ignor ac input and then turn it on based on AC input ( sometimes the set relay off is reversed so off means on and on means off)

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Ingo Paul B commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:15 AM

@Paul B I think you might have misunderstood my reply. What I said was that K1 and K2 behave exactly like the ACout2 'On' function, it also takes between 8s and 15s before it engages instead of the programmed 120s. An external contactor will not work any differently if driven from K1 or K2.

To be fair, I am looking for a reason why the normal programming of the assistant stopped working and why it's never announced in a release note and if it's like this going forward just to have it in writing somewhere. The flip-side is also true, if it is something that 'should' be working why then am I not able to get it fixed via the normal channels.

*Agreed, there is always a workaround for everything. But in this case the discussion revolves around support and a feature that changed behavior.

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Paul B Ingo commented · Mar 10, 2021 at 08:17 AM

I saw that but I am not experiencing that issue

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