What settings to use for a Multi when grid export is strictly forbidden?

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donnib asked Feb 27, '20

What settings to use for a Multi when grid export is strictly forbidden?

Hi,

I have two Questions created already where i have discussed various issues regarding my solution. See here :

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/41291/multiplus-ii-disable-feed-back-entirely-possible.html and https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/42279/lom-detection-when-feed-in-disabled-why.html?childToView=42916#comment-42916

I am sorry that i now create another issue but i am not confident that what i want can indeed be done with the chosen HW/solution.

Background:

I am located in Denmark and wish to buy Victron products to make a hybrid/off-grid system where "All" i want is that i can pull/mix power from grid when i don't have battery/solar but NEVER feedback to the grid, just one little bit will get me into trouble. I assume feed-back and feed-in are the same things right ? The most important thing for me is to not feedback to grid and be able to pull and use the produced energy myself. I think this is called self consumption.

I read on https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:grid-codes-and-loss-of-mains-detection :

Q4: I use ESS, but have disabled feed-back, is a grid-code still required?A: Yes, also in this case LOM is required to make for a safe and also local regulations compliant system. Running ESS with disabled-feed-back is still not the same as using a Multi in its default configuration without ESS.

I don't understand why do i need LOM for this ? Can somebody explain ?

Regarding my usage :
We (our family) have roughly 16-20kw consumption per day and in total 6000-7000kW yearly. I will also have a powerwall build myself using LiFePo4 batteries (48v) roughly a 10-15kwh.

System i have in mind :

1 x Multiplus II 5000/48
2 x SmartSolar 250/60
1 x Venus GX

I have 21pcs of 310W panels (https://bit.ly/2P1GL9O) so i was thinking to place 10 on each side of the roof meaning i would do 2 x 5 panels in series so i would have 200V for 5 panels then parallel the 2 strings and one string is 10A so 200V 20A for one charge controller. I think that is ok but that means I need to use the 250/60 solar charger model which is more expensive and i need two of those. Please correct if i am wrong.

I have 100% stable grid connection and since the Multiplus II can handle a big load in by pass i can practically run the whole house on the AC out from the inverter. Please correct if i am wrong.

Questions:

I want to know if the above system is feasible ? Are there any other Victron HW that i also need which is not on my list above ?
Can I use the system in such a way that i NEVER feed-in/feeback to grid in no circumstance but at the same time i can consume from the grid when no solar or battery is available ?
If 2 is possible can the system be programmed in such a way that when the load is too big for solar alone or solar/battery combined to also mix in grid power BUT still without feed-in/feedback to the grid ?
If 2 and 3 is feasible what do i need ? Do i need ESS or ignore AC input or both if that's possible ? How would one configure ?

MPPT Controllers ESS Phoenix Inverter

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Answer 1 · 2020-02-27T18:15:08Z

Alexandra answered · Feb 27, 2020 at 06:15 PM

To answer your LOM question please see https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:grid-codes-and-loss-of-mains-detection. The answer is mainly to do with safety.

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donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 07:54 AM

Yes that is the link i did ready but this sentence is not clear, why is it not the same ? What is the difference ?

Running ESS with disabled-feed-back is still not the same as using a Multi in its default configuration without ESS

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Answer 2 · 2020-02-27T18:16:34Z

Alexandra answered · Feb 27, 2020 at 06:16 PM

We also live in a country with zero feedback requirements. There are several ways this can be achieved. One is by using an energy meter that can prevent this. We program ESS in and have a grid set point of about 150W, this can be set on a GX device after ESS is programmed (you may have to experiment with how low you can go). I think ESS will best suit your needs as it does allow a mix of Grid power when PV is not enough. You need an MK3 device to program the inverter with the ESS assistant.

You cannot use AC input ignore on Virtual Switch if you are using ESS and other assistants.

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donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 07:51 AM

Ok so few questions :

How does the energy meter prevent the feed in ?
Is a energy meter required when running ESS if i still want to mix AND not feed in to the grid ?
As mentioned in my first post i do have the intention of getting a GX device, at the moment i was looking at the Venus.
Can you explain a bit what this grid set point is ? Is it the point when the inverter will start to mix grid with solar/battery or what is it ?
Why is a MK3 device required when one has a GX device ? Can you not configure the Multiplus through the Venus GX ?

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Answer 3 · 2020-02-27T18:17:53Z

Alexandra answered · Feb 27, 2020 at 06:17 PM

To check your PV setup and MPPT choice there is an online calculator, https://mppt.victronenergy.com/

or a downloadable spreadsheet https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwi6morKp_LnAhUD1xoKHQOtB3UQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.victronenergy.com%2Fupload%2Fsoftware%2FVE-MPPT-Calc-2_4.xlsx&usg=AOvVaw1vFkExXqtI6Yb4juZxq9ZP

They will both allow you to experiment with different configurations and choose an MPPT to fit.

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donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 07:47 AM

Cool. i will have a look, didn't know about this one.

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Answer 4 · 2020-02-27T18:21:50Z

Alexandra answered · Feb 27, 2020 at 06:21 PM

Since you are putting a lot of thought and research into your project I just wanted to add that even though the multi allows a large passthrough current you may want to consider what may happen if the grid fails and it has to suddenly switch to inverter mode. It will need to be able to handle the surge and can cause a system overload, you would need to be sure both the batteries can give the current draw and the inverter can take the surge. I do not know what loads are in your home I am just making an observation based on what I have seen in the field. Hope these answers help.

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donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 07:46 AM

As far as i understand. If no solar/battery it will do a bypass to grid and in this case i can pull 50A which is more than enough and more than what i can pull on one phase which is 32A. I have a normal family house with normal consumers, oven, 2x fridge, dishwasher, vacuum, hairdryer. We have 100% stable grid here so incase of grid failure it depends when it happens. If it happens when the inverter was on bypass then yes the inverter will go to inverter mode but if there is no battery/solar it will stop or if there is and the load is to big it will shut down and then pretty much nothing else i could have done. If i did not have this system the house would be without electricity anyway so not much loss i would say.

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Answer 5 · 2020-02-28T10:35:01Z

Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered · Feb 28, 2020 at 10:35 AM

Hi @donnib,

In a situation where grid feedback is strictly forbidden, and even a few watts will cause issues with your utility meter, or power company you should not use ESS which keeps the AC input grid connected at all times. Even with all feed in / feed back options disabled there is still a chance with ESS that there is some non-zero amount of power flowing back to the grid. For example when the inverter is assisting the grid to run a very large load with solar on a full battery and the load stops, it could allow some small amount of power back into the grid.

Instead you will need to investigate further the options for the ignore AC assistant. It will not be as smooth or elegant system as the ESS. The Multi (and battery system) is more likely to have to take greater load and more surges, and the internal AC relay will be doing more switching. Though correctly configured, it should allow for zero export, and your system to run loads larger than the capacity of the Multi alone.

There is more information about the Ignore AC function here - https://community.victronenergy.com/storage/attachments/3299-virtual-switch-ignore-ac-lesson.pdf

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donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 12:42 PM

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) Thank you very much for your explanation and the link. This explains the issue i was having and trying to understand so it's clear to me now that i should not use ESS which means i loose the functionality of mixing grid with solar/battery. The Inverter will bypass when battery is to low or the load is to high. I also understand that i need to figure out how much load do i have during night so that i don't drain the battery to much so the whole house looses power because the Multi will run of batteries and not grid ? Is there no way to set this so that when the battery goes low (specific threshold) then it should switch to grid and stay on grid until battery is at a level where it can start to pull from it ?

Assuming i use the AC ignore do i need a GX box at all and would i gain anything for having one ? I am hoping your answer is you don't need it so i can buy this later....cut the upfront investment :)

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ donnib commented · Feb 28, 2020 at 01:27 PM

The Multi will still mix grid with solar and battery, but only under certain limited conditions, that reduce the possibility of accidental feed-in, such as when the battery isn't full (as momentary surplus can then go into the battery).

The inverter will not be bypassed when the grid is connected. The difference is the AC input relay will be allowed to close (on) during times when possible feed in is minimal, instead of all the time.

Correctly configured, the system will not run out of battery. When the battery is low, the grid is allowed in to run the loads and maintain the battery voltage. Normally in ESS the grid is ALWAYS allowed in, and the system does it's best to balance the grid supply and battery/solar to keep the grid level to the set value (ie 0).

What you describe as how you want it to work, with the grid coming in when the battery is low, is exactly how it does work with the Ignore AC. As long as you configure it that way.

Now might be good time for you to open up the demo mode of VictronConnect, select the Multi, and look at the AC input control options.

The GX is no longer a necessity in this kind of system, but I personally believe it is the best value for money product that Victron makes, and you will get your money's worth, and make your system a lot more enjoyable and understandable.

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donnib Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Mar 02, 2020 at 09:38 AM

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) thank you again for your reply.

when the battery isn't full (as momentary surplus can then go into the battery).

Could you maybe explain more about this, i am not sure what you mean maybe with one or two examples ? I can start with few examples :

So if i assume battery is full and no solar is available then i get a load of 6kw which means the inverter can only provide 5kw from battery but it needs 1kw, will the inverter in this case mix grid with battery power ?
Assuming battery is 50% same case as in 1
Assuming there is solar power of 2kw, battery is not full and the load is 8kw what happens now ?

I read you replay and i notice words such as "reduce the possibility" and "possible feed is minimal" in a way that i have NO guarantee that this will not happen even if i configure it correct or am i just paranoid ?

When the battery is low, the grid is allowed in to run the loads and maintain the battery voltage.

I understand this that the inverter will charge the battery but i can turn this off right ? If i do that i need to make sure that i stop pulling from the battery at a time so i know that i can cover the night load until sun comes up. Was it correct understood that the Multi runs from battery and not the grid so i always need power on the batteries ?

demo mode of VictronConnect

Is this the iOS app you are referring to ? Could you maybe post a link ?

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ donnib commented · Mar 02, 2020 at 10:03 AM

You can read all about Victron Connect, where to get it and the demo mode here - https://www.victronenergy.com/live/victronconnect:start

Yes, if the inverter can only supply 5kW and the load is 6kW, the grid will be connected to supply the shortfall.
The same.
The same.

The behaviour of the inverter/charger and battery charging will depend on how it is programmed/configured.

The Multi will run from either or both the batteries or the grid. The Multi should be programmed to connect the grid and run from that when the battery is low to prevent any power interruption.

For me to explain the behaviour in any more detail might have to wait for a training video that I am working on. I don't think it is that easy to explain any clearer with back and forth written words, and some animations and verbal descriptions would be better.

I will never say never for possible feedback when connecting an inverter/charger on an AC bus to a grid supply. Only extremely unlikely when correctly configured. The possibility still exists in some circumstances.

There are a great many Victron systems using MultiPlus inverter/chargers connected to utility meters that will shut down and be locked if they detect ANY grid feedback. These systems work well and provide a reliable and flexible power supply to their users. But as it is technically possible when two devices are both connected and both creating a synchronised AC voltage and sine wave, I will not say Guaranteed Never.

Ignore AC is the closest you can get to reducing the chance to zero, while still having the benefits of an inverter/charger.

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Answer 6 · 2020-03-02T12:53:39Z

nigelfxs answered · Mar 02, 2020 at 12:53 PM

Hi Donnib

"... but NEVER feedback to the grid, just one little bit will get me into trouble".

I am not familiar with the requirements in Denmark, however I recommend that you investigate this requirement in more detail - just to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

While feedback to the grid is never allowed during a power outage, in many cases it is okay to have a short-duration/low-power feedback to the grid. The reason for this is that many appliances, which have a motor, can feed back a small amount of power back to the grid when the load changes suddenly.

If you enable ESS, then you can minimise the total grid feedback by increasing the Grid Set point - see the picture below.

If you increase the Grid Set-point to 50W or 100W, then the probability of feeding back power to the grid (and total energy) gets smaller and smaller. Also keep in mind that the Multiplus-II will never feedback to the grid during a power outage.

1583153364435.png (28.7 KiB)

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