question

dom avatar image
dom asked

augmentation de la fréquence quand batteries ne sont pas encore chargée / Frequency is increasing even though batteries are not yet charged

Bonjour à tous,

Je viens d'installer un système offgrid composé de 65 Kwc de PV, 9 onduleurs SMA 5.0 et 3 quattro 48/15000. Le stockage est composé de 12 batteries BYD de 13.8KWh.

Tout fonctionne à merveille mais alors que la charge des batteries n'est pas encore complète, le quattro maître augmente la fréquence de sorte que je ne peux pas profiter de toute ma puissance photovoltaïque. Je vois sur le CGX que je peux charger/décharger mes batteries avec un courant de 2100A sous plus de 50 v et qu'en réalité, il charge à 360 A .

Comment expliquer celà ?


Merci à tous


Dominique


battery chargingBYD
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7 Answers
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered ·

Hi @Dom,

I see a few potential issues, they may not resolve the situation but they also need to be addressed.

Please confirm that the 3 x Quattros are running the latest current firmware version, at least 465.

It would also be a good idea to enable Two Way Communication on the CCGX.

There are instructions for both of these procedures (3 phase and parallel commissioning, and CCGX settings) in Victron Professional, in the E-Learning section. Please watch those and undertake the exams.

I looks like there may be a limitation in place in the programmed maximum charge current setting on the Quattros, and that is limiting their ability to convert AC to DC to charge the batteries. This was something that has been addressed in a firmware update.

Though if the site is not accessible now, it may be possible to check if this is the issue without a site visit, and the firmware update. Though of course it is STRONGLY recommended to be on the latest version at commissioning, before you begin programming.

With Two Way Communications enabled on the GX device, this setting can be checked remotely. It is also possible to enable Two Way Comms remotely, if Remote Console is already enabled on the GX device.

There is further training on Remote VEConfigure to look into this here.

Please follow up again here, or with your Victron dealer if that does isolate or even resolve the issue.

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Bonjour et grand merci Guy pour ces informations ... le jour de l'an.

Je te reviens dès que j'ai pu investiguer tes pistes.


Merci,

Dominique


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dom avatar image
dom answered ·

Bonjour Guy,

La version Logiciel des quattro est la 430.

Dans les paramètres CCGX, onglet quattro, je vois "limite de courant d'entrée" 120 A.

J'imagine qu'en ayant 3 quattro, je suis limité à 360 A.

C'est ce que je vois sur mes différents graphiques.

Je ne peux pas mettre à jour à distance le firmware.

Je n'ai pas d'accès au paramètre "limite de courant".

Quelles sont les solutions.

Notre société est située en Belgique et le conteneur au Sénégal ...


Merci de ton retour,


Dominique


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Hi @Dom,

Thank you for enabling those features, and I can now see some changes that need adjustment.

The charge current limit for each inverter is set to 150A, where it should be adjusted to the maximum 200A.

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It is possible for these setting to be changed on each of the 3 Quattros remotely via the Remote VEConfigure setting and the VEConfigurator tool, Training for how to use this tools is available on Victron Professional E-Learning.

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I am able to change this now myself, but would prefer of course if you were able to do it yourself.

Then I would like to see how the system responds to this adjustment. I expect that more power will be allowed to flow from the AC PV inverters.

There may be another issue (eg balancing), which is also preventing the existing limit of 150A x 3 from being achieved, and one of the inverters might be doing more work than the others and reaching the 150A individual limit to trigger the frequency shift. That may require someone on site with a clamp meter to diagnose.

We will not know if this is an issue worth investigating until after the adjustment to 200A per unit is made. That may allow enough to resolve it.

I also noticed that the AC PV Inverter assistant has only been loaded into the first Quattro, this assistant requires that it be loaded onto all Multi's (Quattros) in a system.

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I have also seen that the location of the AC PV inverters is listed as on the AC input, but I don't believe this is correct? Can you please confirm the location of the AC PV inverters in the system.

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The system is currently AC input limited at the Quattro level to 10A, and 6A respectively. I presume that this is for a (relatively) small generator. If the AC PV is actually connected to AC input, then this would also be a constraint.

This is also marked as NOT allowed to be overruled by the remote (CCGX).

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dom avatar image
dom answered ·

Bonjour Guy,

J'ai suivi tes conseils.

J'ai modifié la consigne de charge à 200 A par convertisseur.

Malheureusement, cette destinataire n'est pas visible dans le CCGX.

J'ai toujours cette valeur de 120 A (au lieu de 110 mais pas 200 A)

Ais-je bien effectué cette opération ?

Serait-ce lié à la version du firmware?

Merci

Dominique

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These are two different values, and describe two different things.

The CCGX value relates to the AC input current limit, in this case limited by the AC transfer switch of the Quattros. 120A x 3 is extremely large ( 240VAC x 120A x 3 Quattros = 86.4 kW ).

However the CCGX AC input current limit is secondary in priority to the individual AC1 input limit that is set inside VEConfigure, and in this case, the AC input limit for AC1 is only 10A ( 240VAC x 10A x 30 Quattros = 7.2 kW ).

The value that you have just changed is the maximum DC Current that will be converted from AC to charge the batteries. (~50VDC x 200A x 3 Quattros = ~30 kW). That 30 kW is the maximum amount of power that these Quattros can convert from the AC PV to DC battery charging power.

It is more likely that this figure will be less, due to heat temperature derating,

I believe this is the most likely limitation that we are seeing that is causing the frequency to rise. Time will now tell if increasing the value from 150A DC to 200A DC makes the difference to this site.

Given there is 45 kW of AC PV, to a maximum possible 30 kW of battery charging power, there will always be some constraint of the PV, unless you also have 15 kW of AC loads to make the difference.

Other Changes before Firmware Update

I see that you added the PV inverter assistant to one of the other Quattros, but still not all three?

Also you made an adjustment to another of the AC input current limits in VEConfigure to 40A, but again did not do this for all 3 units. Some are still set at 10A.

Also the Overruled by remote box is still not ticked, so the CCGX value will not be applied. Perhaps you have a reason for this, but I would suggest enabling it for the 3 units if you do not.

Firmware update

We will not know if this is necessary or beneficial until all the other suggested changes are made, and there is time for more solar data to collect in VRM.

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Hello @Dom,

There is another issue I raised earlier, that you did not yet respond too.

The Fronius AC PV inverters are configured as connected to AC Input. I believe they are actually connected to the AC output.

This looks like it is causing issues in VRM - as it sees the Consumption = Production Please confirm the configuration setting matches the installation, and make the correction if it is required:

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered ·

Hello @Dom,

The inverters are reporting an overheating warning. This will de-rate their power output, and limit the PV inverter production, as they cannot put all available potential PV energy into the battery without further overheating.

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Please consider cooling solutions (ideally insulation and sufficient climate control with air-conditioning). Or very large external fans and sufficient airflow across the inverters. There are some other suggestions for how to keep equipment cool here.


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dom avatar image
dom answered ·

Bonjour Guy,

J'ai eu pas mal de boulot hier et je viens de changer les paramètres des onduleurs.

Je ne connait pas encore très bien le CCGX et j'ai du monter l'ensemble de l'installation assez rapidement. Tu verras les photos si tu veux?

Concernant les différentes valeurs de la limite AC In 1

Maître: 40 A

Esclave 1:10 A

Esclave 2: 10 A

Je viens de comprendre que tous ces paramètres sont à introduire dans le maître ET dans les esclaves.

J'avais donc au total 60 A.

Est-ce préférable de régler sur chacun 20 A? La question est stupide car je connais déjà la réponse.

Mon revendeur m'avait expliqué que tout ce que je programmais sur le maître arrivait sur les esclaves.

Je viens de changer la position des onduleurs en AC OUT (beaucoup plus logique).

Je viens de faire descendre la température du climatiseur afin de voir demain si on arrive à dépasser ce fichier seuil de 360 A de charge DC.

Oui, il y a la charge derrière mon PV.

L'installation alimente un hôtel. Il y a donc toujours de la consommation: 10-12000 W.

Donc ce qui restait disponible pour les batteries serait au alentours de 30.000 W.

Merci encore pour toute tes bonnes informations.

Je vais certainement concevoir un deuxième conteneur plus puissant encore et mon expérience avec Victron-BYD et SMA étant très positif, je placerais le même matériel.

Merci encore pour toutes ces bonnes informations ...

PS: il y a tellement de chose à voir sur le net concernant les appareils, configurations et installations que je n'ai pas encore pu prendre le temps de voir tout cela à tête reposée



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Photos would be very useful!

If it is possible to wait a few days to collect a bit more data before making more changes to settings and firmware etc.

What did you set the Aircon temp too? Is there any way of keeping track of the air temperature inside the equipment structure?

I only have 2 data points, the temperature of the batteries, and the over temperature alarm of the inverters.

Yesterday the inverters still over temp warning. At least one of them. My theory is there is some issue with the wiring, or connection, and one inverter is working harder than the others, and limiting the whole system. But I have no proof, just an idea.

So the way to know for sure is to run a test. When the system is limited, Using a clamp meter over the DC positive wire leading into the bottom of each of the Quattros, take a measurement of the current. To get maximum performance, each should be equal.

I suspect one will be different to the others. If it is, then you should try to find out why by inspecting all the wiring and making sure that it is equal to the others, without any parts that are loose.

A thermal camera would be an EXTREMELY useful tool, only a few 100 Euros. That will show you visually if one inverter is hotter than the others, and also show you if there are any hot spots in the wiring/circuits to any of them that is leading to increase resistance, the imbalance (and less than maximum).

Also I note that this system recharged yesterday from 33% state of charge to fully charged 100%. A massive recharge, with batteries full at 3:45pm with another 2 hours of Sunshine still to go.

I don't know how much you changed the aircon temp down by, but the battery temperature only reduced by 1 degree. So either change it down further, or that aircon/building insulation is insufficient to handle the heat load that is created by those high powered electronics.

Cooling required for heating load

Seeing some photos of the structure and design would be very useful.

Who did the thermal design?

On the back of my envelope; If they are all in the same room (AC PV, Quattros, & Batteries), and the room is reasonably well insulated.

45 kW AC PV @ 95% efficiency = 2.25 kW

33 kW Quattro charging @ 85% efficiency = 4.9 kW

33 kW Lithium Batteries at 90% efficiency = 3.3 kW

40 sq M of building heat gain ~ 5kW (A vague guess here)

So to get peak performance from this system, you are looking at an aircon of at least 15 kW, or usually 2 x 8kW. That is cooling energy/rating, not electrical energy as aircon gets some energy advantage from the atmosphere.

If you can, reduce the night time temp on the aircon down to 16 degrees, at the moment it only gets to 20 degrees. That will hopefully keep the daytime temperature down to 25 degrees, as it still gets to 30 degrees. Those measurements are at the batteries, so the inverter temperatures will be much higher.

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dom avatar image
dom answered ·

Hello Guy,

Je viens de faire redescendre la température de la clim.

Plus d'alarmes température pour les convertisseurs.

Malgré cela, toujours cet écrêtage à 20K !

Penses-tu qu'une mise à jours de la version du firmware pourrait solutionner mon problème ?

Si c'est le cas, j'y retourne la semaine prochaine...

A+

Dominique

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dom avatar image
dom answered ·

Bonjour Guy,

Mon problème d'écrêtage est très certainement du à la chaleur car aucun des autres paramètres et tests réalisés ne s'avèrent être négatif.


Je suis occupé à pré-concevoir une autre centrale Off grid pour alimenter un gros consommateur avec 2 containers mono de 90 KVA chacun. (Victron, SMA et BYD)

Avez-vous chez Victron la courbe de charge des batteries régulée en fonction de la température ?

Ce serait assez important pour moi afin de pouvoir calculer au mieux l'énergie injectée dans les batteries.

Aussi, dans le cadre d'un autre projet, je dois réaliser un petit Off grid ( 1 quattro 15KVA et 2 batteries BYD) qui alimenterait un village.

Je voudrais pouvoir compter l'énergie que chaque habitation consomme afin de la facturer.

Est-il possible d'utiliser des compteurs ET112 à cette fin et si oui, combien peut-on en installer au maximum?

Je voudrais récupérer toutes ces infos de consommations par internet.

Merci pour ton retour.


Dominique


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