Orion XS safe VHF antenna distance?

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henri-bergius asked Apr 10, '24

Orion XS safe VHF antenna distance?

We recently replaced our older Orion-Tr Smart 12/30 with the new Orion XS. This was done in order to:

Get more output, as the older Orion-Tr seemed to thermal-throttle (we only got a typical 10A instead of 30A out of our 80A alternator
To get alternator charging coordinate better with solar via DVCC

I placed the Orion XS into our boat's "technical compartment" In the same place where the Orion-Tr has been for the past years. Then we started our summer cruise.

So far the experience with the Orion XS has been a disaster. Instead of increased output, we actually see a decreased one: typically only around 7A!

That we could probably live with, but the really dangerous issue is that it seems to interfere with our VHF. When we're motoring, the VHf unit receives strong static that can't be reduced with the squelch.

AIS receiver that's on the same antenna (with a splitter) seems to work ok.

What's interesting was that our handheld VHF was receiving the same static even when kept a few meters away from the Orion XS.

The static goes away when turning off the engine.

Any ideas what could be done to fix this? I could try moving the Orion XS further away from the antenna cable, though this requires some re-tetrising our collection of blue boxes on that bulkhead.

One option of course is that we may have received a faulty unit. Would love to hear from other Orion XS users if they see either of these symptoms (radio interference, low output) from their units.

orion xs

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JohnC answered · Apr 10 at 09:04 AM

@Henri Bergius

You could take a look at Ferrite beads. Even type "ferrite" into the Search box here, you might find something pertinent, not necessarily the Orion specifically. Not really familiar with them myself, but maybe someone else can contribute re their usefulness.

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henri-bergius commented · Apr 10 at 10:31 AM

That's something we could try. Somewhat trickier to acquire now that we're under way.

Where would you place the beads? There are five wires going to the Orion XS:

Positive wire from starter battery
Positive wire from Lynx distribution to house bank
Negative wire from shared negative bus
Positive wire from the engine ignition key circuit (to remote on/off)
VE.Direct USB cable connected to Cerbo GX

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ henri-bergius commented · Apr 11 at 12:21 PM

On all of them. They absorb some of the EMF so put them on both ends of all your wires.

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henri-bergius Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Apr 17 at 10:13 AM

We were able to source some ferrite blocks, and installed them to the three main wires (input, output, negative). This, plus rerouting the input positive wire seemed to help quite a bit. Now we only get occasional interference on the fixed VHF. Handheld gets a lot if you move it close to the Orion (or the engine compartment).

Interestingly, the interference seems strongest on channel 16. Other VHF channels are less or not at all affected.

Now the system is semi-usable. We'll probably add some more ferrite blocks when available.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ henri-bergius commented · Apr 17 at 01:59 PM

I’d be very interested to hear if adding more ferrite continues to reduce the interference or if there is diminishing returns.

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2024-04-10T08:33:15Z

Alex Pescaru answered · Apr 10 at 08:33 AM

Hi @Henri Bergius

Low frequency static which varies with the engine RPM, or high frequency static which is pretty constant?

It could be from the engine/alternator, but the XS wiring, somehow, amplifies these and leaks / floods the radio spectrum...

Alex

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henri-bergius commented · Apr 10 at 10:28 AM

The interference feels pretty constant. As mentioned, the Orion-Tr installed in same place with same wiring didn't have this issue.

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henri-bergius henri-bergius commented · Apr 11 at 11:54 AM

As

As shown in the video above, it is really sensitive to positioning.

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1000006149.mp4 (18.9 MiB)

Answer 2 · 2024-04-15T10:01:05Z

niels-mobers answered · Apr 15 at 10:01 AM

@Henri Bergius I assume the Orion XS "throttles down" due to reduced alternator (=input) voltage under load. The same mechanism is used by the Orion-Tr and the result between both products almost the same.

When the input voltage drops to "Vshutdown", the engine off detection mechanism reduces power to prevent the input voltage to drop even further. Typically Vshutdown is set to 13.1V, you can check if your input voltage is indeed limited to Vshutdown in VictronConnect.

See manual: 4.2. Engine shutdown detection sequence

https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/Orion_XS_12-12-50A_DC-DC_battery_charger/en/operation,-configuration-and-monitoring.html#UUID-7cb1b674-5e2b-c9d8-2c36-5af41989f186

You can check if the current rises when you throttle up, when in idle or cruise speed the alternator cannot output 80A but only a fraction of that. You can reduce Vshutdown, but be aware that a reduced alternator voltage usually means your alternator is not capable of supplying the desired current. Also be aware of other loads connected to the alternator, the Orion can only take what's left, shutting down other loads can also result in a higher current taken by the Orion.

For you EMC issue, do you have (long) cables connected to VE.Direct and/or remote on/off? This can sometimes also amplify noise picked-up from secondary sources. This noise can (as proposed by others) be damped by applying ferrite cores. You can (if connected) remove the VE.Direct and/or replace the remote with the short loop that comes with the product to see if the performance improves.

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henri-bergius commented · May 29 at 10:07 AM

The remote on/off wire is pretty long, as it is from the engine "ignition key". Will try ferriting that

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Answer 3 · 2024-06-08T23:01:27Z

latulippe answered · Jun 08 at 11:01 PM

J'ai le même problème d'interférence quand mon orions-xs est en marche et l'interférence change avec la révolution du moteur. Lorsque je débranche l'antenne de 8 pied le son arrêt. Le problème ne vient pas de l’alimentation, mais bien du bruit créé par l’orions xs. J'ai aussi essayé les ferrites à l'entrée et à la sortie, et sur la plupart des fils principaux dc+ , sans succès. Mais lorsque je mais mes mains en avant et arrière du orions-xs arrêt à base révolution du moteur qui charge de 16 à 18 ampères mais quand le régime tourne plus vite le son est la charge de 40 à 50 ampères.

Je cherche un isolant ( une boite ) qui pourrait contenir le bruit . Mon orions-xs se trouve dans le compartiment à batterie et électroniques (fermé en tole et aluminium) sur un ponton de 24 pieds et l'antenne est à 6 à 7 pieds du compartiment.

j aimerais bien trouver une solution . Car quand je navigue je doit fermé la radio le canal 16 est inutilisable.

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Answer 4 · 2024-06-24T13:06:42Z

robert-4 answered · Jun 24 at 01:06 PM

I have also installed a Orion XS 50A in my boat this year and got some the Orion.
I get a interfering sound in my VHF that I didn't hear with my earlier system Cteks DC/DC converter.

When I disable the charger with the app while running the engine the sound disappears. The interference is not heard when the Orion XS charges with lower current, around 4A.

I interference is there both when the engine is in idle and higher rpm. It's a 115A alternator.

I have purchased some no-name ferrites that I will put on the main three conductor. I will also play around with some nF ceramic capacitors between the ports. The probably have to be put on the PCB to make the best use.
I have no other conductors connected to the Orion.

If I don't solve it I will contact the support for a complaint.

With this interference my boat sends out a forbidden signal on the ch 16 and I can risk paying a fine.

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robert-4 commented · Jun 25 at 08:43 AM

Now I have installed three 12mm ferrite blocks on all main cables.

The interference dissapeared at least on the first test. We will see how good it perform under my vacation season

I purchased them in a Swedish store,

https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/dator/datorkomponenter/kontakter-till-dator/ferritblock-12-mm-p90369

Unfortunately no datasheet. Ferrites have different impedance and frequency response.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Jun 24 at 08:16 PM

Hi @robert-4,

There is another interesting thread here about MPPT noise mitigation, even though they are talking about solar panels instead of an alternator, for all intents and purposes the theory and strategy is the same - https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/46987/heavy-rfi-noise-on-victron-mppt-15070.html

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