This screen shot is from: Manual-Quattro-5k-120V-(firmware-xxxx4xx)a-EN-ES
The main Question is that now there is contradiction in description how the Search mode works. first is say "no-load" then it say you can adjust the "shut down" and "Turn on" levels.
What we are facing as problem is that in reality Search mode will only be active if there is litarly ZERO LOAD AC on the inverter, so what is the need for the load levels defination?!!
When it talks about "power consumption in no-load operation," it just means that the base consumption of the inverter is going to be reduced during Search. It is trying to make a distinction between that internal power cost and any actual (AC) loads: the latter will not be magically reduced by 70%.
The wording is somewhat awkward in English.
I interpret it as there are two conditions the inverter can test for in search mode. Either a "no load" or "low load" with the latter being a user programmable option e.g. where maybe some chargers etc. or devices in standby mode will continue to draw power but in essence, it can actually be turned off using this feature.
I think the two settings are probably just a hysteresis band.
If the 0.5Hz probe detects a power demand above "turn on," the inverter spins up. If the power demand subsequently drops below "shut down," the inverter goes back to Search.
The band allows you to continue to power devices that exceed the Turn On threshold initially but that then draw some lower power for a while.
I believe this is basically a separate concern from the 70% baseline power savings discussed in my answer. The original question is too vague to know exactly what the concern is, however.
Firstly, thanks for your intentions to Help to answer the question a lot
It is needed to be clarified that it would be appreciated if the answeres comes from someone who did test this in the field? Not just based on WRITTEN INSTRUCTION understanding!
Because simply testing it in reality,y would lead to one behviour>> Search mode is ONLY active and the inverter is showing "low power" when there is ZERO watts consumed. Even less than 1 Watt will wake-up the inverter and keep it on to feed the load with internal consumption of 30 W. Which doesn't make any technical scene to have lower and higher Hystrisys values if they will never be applied.
The Hystrisys may apply in the "Modified sine wave" mode, but not in "Search mode" that what we experience so far.
How did you test this? what kind of load did you use?
the loads are normal off-grid household load (Fridge, Toaster, laptops, Modem...)
We try to put the AC loads below the defined Hystrisys to test and then turn some on to see how it reacts, but until now it is hard to stay with what the manual descripes
Are you trying to use AES on your parallel system that we discussed in your other question?
If so, as discussed and as per the related manual - it's NOT meant to work on multi unit systems (only stand alone units).
Hi Mark,
the system we have is a stand-alone unit we are using only 1 Quattro 5000
I believe you did confuse this with having a Hybrid li-ion + lead-acid storage in parallel. I know that the AES won't work in a parallel Quattro configuration but we have only 1
To clarify Mohamed's questions, here is what is actually happening:
The "Start AES when load lower than" is currently set at 90 W and the "stop AES when load___W higher than start level" is currently set at 50W. (these are values that I have been experimenting with just to see if I can get the inverter to stay in 'search mode'. Also note that if I turn all AC loads off, the inverter does go into 'search mode')
One would expect that when the AC load is lower than 90W the inverter would shut down into 'search mode' and when the load reached 90+50=140W the inverter would turn back on. This, however, is not the case.
An AC load of 40 W, for example, does not turn the inverter off. If the load reaches ~8 W the inverter momentarily shows 'low load' and shuts down and then almost immediately starts up again.
Nothing tried so far has worked to get the 'search mode' to work properly.
Any suggestions?
Okay, so two things:
1) As documented in the manual, you can't use Search mode for certain types of house loads, including some of the ones listed in Mohamed's clarification. So before we spend more time on this, be sure this is something you actually want. For most of us, Search is essentially useless.
2) Thanks for the clarification, but we still need to know what was asked earlier: how exactly are you making the load for your test?
To clarify further: I have been successfully operating my off-grid home in central British Columbia for over 20 years on a PV/gas genset hybrid system. Before Mohamed installed the 'Victron' system last month, my system operated around a TRACE SW inverter. With the TRACE inverter the search mode watts was set at 48 and it operated with all household loads currently being used-when the power dropped below 48W the system dropped to 'search' and when the loads increased above 48 W the system came back on. ( I don't bother much about search mode in the summer but with short sunshine winter hours it makes a difference. eg if the inverter is in search mode for 12 hr/day the system would save 20 W x 12 hrs=240 Wh/day which is not trivial)
The question restated is; why can I not get the Victron "search mode" function to operate as well as the old TRACE "search mode" function?
Okay, we're finally starting to get a better picture. But you still haven't told us how you created the 40W or 8W loads?
I'm just speculating here, as probably everyone will be. Here are some possible answers to your question/concern:
1) Your inverter is defective.
2) The search feature works, but it is inferior to the one on your Trace. (Why did you replace it, by the way?)
3) The search feature works fine, but you have misconfigured it.
4) The search feature works fine, but only with loads that behave in a certain way, and you are not supplying the "right" kind.
5) The search feature works fine, but you are not placing the loads you think you are placing on the inverter.
Since 3-5 seem more likely than 1 or 2, and anyway those are the ones we can help you diagnose most directly over the internet, that's where I'm leading you.
If you don't like that path, that's okay. But if you want to continue, we need more information about exactly what you are doing when you create the test.
Another option is to decide that, in fact, 240Wh/day is not actually much. Perhaps you could just add another 100W panel to account for this 240Wh/winter day you are consuming without the search feature. Eventually, you may well run into a household device that can't function correctly with search anyway, and you'll need something continuous then. (In my full-time residence, which is also completely inverter-powered, I have three devices that I know are incompatible with that mode.)
With all appliances 'off' and in most cases unplugged-with the exception of the washing machine, the refrigerator and the deep freeze-the load varies between zero -'low load' then displayed and 8 to 11 W. The inverter switches back and forth between standby and "inverting". With all circuit breakers opened, the inverter switches to and stays on 'standby'.
In answer to your points:
1. This may be the case because with the "Start AES when load lower than..."set at 100 W, it would seem that 8 to 11W should not start inverting.
2. The TRACE is an old inverter so one would think that the new Victron would have a superior 'search mode' feature to the TRACE. The Victron inverter is the backbone of the system recently installed in my home by Mohamed Elkadragy of KIT as a R&D project-this system is working well so far except for this minor glitch.
3. If this is the case, how do you suggest this be configured- only two things to consider-"Start AES when load lower than__?W" and "Stop AES when load_??W higher than start level".
4. What are the "right kinds"?
5. I'm not sure what you mean by this?
We're planning to add more panels (in fact, more than doubling) but with short, cloudy winter days the solar input is sometimes zero and 2 x's zero is still zero. Although the 'search mode' is not absolutely necessary, it will be an energy saving feature if it can be made to work properly.
Okay, let's see if we can make some more progress:
With all appliances 'off' and in most cases unplugged-with the exception of the washing machine, the refrigerator and the deep freeze-the load varies between zero -'low load' then displayed and 8 to 11 W. The inverter switches back and forth between standby and "inverting". With all circuit breakers opened, the inverter switches to and stays on 'standby'.
One thing is true about most larger Victron devices: their current sensors are not necessary high-precision. I would expect they have to be to get an AES mode to work right (since normally we'd specify pretty low power levels for those), but it's one of those situations where you should really verify if you can. It would be a good idea to put an AC probe on the output wire and see what your real current is with those devices in "off".
Is there a way to isolate even more devices with your breakers, such that you only have a single circuit enabled at all, and if possible, could that circuit only have a simple resistive load on it, like a lightbulb? I'd feel better about the analysis if you had a known stable, dead simple load you could test with instead of a big circuit with random devices.
1. This may be the case because with the "Start AES when load lower than..."set at 100 W, it would seem that 8 to 11W should not start inverting.
I agree, it seems like that should be small enough. However, the search sensing mechanism may be more sensitive to transients than the pathway that is showing you the wattage that you are quoting. And you may have a device that is instantaneously demanding more current for a very short period each time the search attempt occurs -- that would align with the oscillation you are observing.
The TRACE is an old inverter so one would think that the new Victron would have a superior 'search mode' feature to the TRACE.
Trace made some great products, and AES is less and less a priority as systems get larger and solar and batteries get cheaper. It wouldn't surprise me if the implementations are different in important ways. It is possible that Victron's search is more sensitive (see above) and ironically therefore won't work as well with complex starting loads.
If this is the case, how do you suggest this be configured- only two things to consider-"Start AES when load lower than__?W" and "Stop AES when load_??W higher than start level".
I would start by testing it with way higher values and see if you can get it to work correctly. I would also use "dumber" loads for testing, like I mentioned above.
What are the "right kinds"?
Static loads that don't have a reactive component would be best. Anything dynamic in nature might be capable of fooling the sensing algorithm.
(cont'd)
(cont'd)
The search feature works fine, but you are not placing the loads you think you are placing on the inverter.
By this, I meant that you may be fooled. The inverter's display may not be accurate or precise enough to show you what is being sensed. You have not measured the actual current independently. You may have a dynamic load that draws 1000W for 200 microseconds to charge a capacitor and then falls to 1W in standby right afterwards. Etc.
Ideally, the AES feature would be resilient in the face of these loads. But, until we know more, I think you should simplify your circuit down to the bare essentials. Eliminating other contributing factors might get you to an answer sooner -- even if in conclusion, it is that the inverter itself is defective.
We're planning to add more panels (in fact, more than doubling) but with short, cloudy winter days the solar input is sometimes zero and 2 x's zero is still zero. Although the 'search mode' is not absolutely necessary, it will be an energy saving feature if it can be made to work properly.
Good for you. My point was just that, in real life, time is money is energy to some extent or another. You're not really saving that much in the grand scheme of things, and your estimate is based on your consumption today but not in the future. You can certainly add capacity to work around the search issue -- if we never end up solving it -- at a fairly small cost.
Put another way, your time spent debugging may be worth something. :)
I have a very similar issue with my Multiplus 24/2000.
I live off grid surrounded by woodland so good sunlight is quite scarce in winter. With a zero load power of 20w i'm losing 20x24=480wh/day. It's not huge but it's still significant for me. I need to be able to run my fridge while I'm out, so I thought search mode could be useful.
With the values of 50w for shutdown and 108W for turn on, even just a 5w light switched on will prevent the multi from going in to search mode. Switch the light off and search mode starts, and it works fine with the fridge coming on and off. But these numbers just don't add up. Why is there this inaccuracy?
The practicalities of using search mode on a day to day basis I have yet to explore. But I could do with knowing what's happening here first.
I'm running firmware version 413 which is fairly outdated. Would it be worth me updating to help with this issue?
Many thanks
Definitely sounds weird.
What happens if you simply raise the shutdown setting higher? Is there some value 50 < x < 108 at which the 5W light turning off does send it back into search?
Hey ben,
I haven’t experimented much with different shutdown values yet, I wanted to check I wasn’t misunderstanding something first.
I’ll have to leave that till the weekend though when I’ll at least have lots of daylight to make things easier!
Any thoughts on the firmware upgrade?
I'm definitely no expert, but my suspicion is that the firmware won't change a thing. If I weren't personally hesitant to take firmware updates "just for fun," I would still encourage you to try it since it's pretty easy to do. But, I am, and so I'm a lot less excited about the idea. :)
