Warranty Not As Good As What’s Made Out?

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daza asked Feb 7, '24

Warranty Not As Good As What’s Made Out?

Good morning,

As the title it seems the Victron warranty isn’t as good as was made out!

I’m based in the UK and I have a multiplus 2 5000 which is under a year old ESS and PV assistant installed and with pylontech batteries. So I noticed that my multiplus never zeroed out my smart meter and would wildly fluctuate wattage but never zero the IHD smartmeter this made no difference wired via Victron CT or ET112

I raised this with the distro I purchased the multiplus, they dug into the VRM and noticed 500watts going missing probably over a day I imagine as I only noticed 100odd watts and a base line on the smart meter of 10watts that would jump to 80 and sometimes 100watts but never zero even with my ESS grid set point to -50 it would fluctuate even more exporting more which I would expect but also importing more So I left it at -20 grid set point but never zero’ed my smartmeter.

i even got this draw when my PV was enough to make the house base load run at -700watts so from the VRM I saw 1400watts of solar and a base load of the house at 700watts Victron multiplus was drawing 60watts from the grid as it sent the other 700watts to charge the batteries that where already at 80% SOC. Its 3 pylontech US5000’s programmed as per Victron guidance on Pylontech.

Anyway the distro got my 6 to 7 month old multiplus 2 sent off to Victron and gave me a beat up Quattro 5000 it was the only thing they had laying around at the time got me out of a jam so thanks goes to the distro! So I installed it in place of the multiplus 2 5000 on the 13th of december 2023 and with the ESS, PV assistant and grid set point to minus -10 it zeroed out the smartmeter, I have then looked at my energy providers readout and it has confirmed that when I switched over from the multiplus 2 to the loan Qauttro it wasn’t displaying the same issue so illuminating anything from the site itself only thing changed is grid point to -10 instead of -20.

Now Victron are saying no issues with the multiplus 2 5000 I must follow Victron guidance on ESS settings and that is the only thing Victron repair say follow Victron guidance on ESS, Both units have simular setting I say similar as i didn’t need to set the grid set point on the Quattro to -20 it hasn’t displayed any of the issues that the multiplus 2 has. Anyone at Victron care to comment? @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) @Matthias Lange - DE @mvader (Victron Energy) @Kevin Windrem

Ive reached the end of my threshold and everyone at stalemate me being my nice 6-7 month old unit doesn’t work properl, the distro knows it doesn’t work properly and victron repair ignoring everything and saying follow ESS settings. How does a lone unit not display the samething same environment settings the same apart from the -10 setting used on the quattro compared to the -20 used on the multiplus.

below is a screen shot on the 13th when the unit was swapped over that the grid draw stopped and the unit actually exported power instead of importing it. Victron is a great community but I’ve not bought the product for that I’ve bought it to save energy/cut my cost it’s a more premium solution but not if it doesn’t work properly and a kick in the teeth if warranty is honoure very much wishing I just went off the shelf with Giv energy or another manufacturer at this point and wondering the unit is only 6-7months old are Victron going to honour anything for a 5year period or is there going to be static like what im getting now? I know this might not be the best place but I’m frustrated annoyed and disheartened and getting no other dialogue than the distro saying Victron said follow Victron ESS settings well I have so I’m not sure what I’m ment to do!

Below is a readout when the multiplus 2 was displaying issues i have exported nothing but have imported. Octopus have told me they can measure 6 to 9 places after the decimal point so if I’m not exporting I’m 100% importing.

Multiplus-II warranty honour

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Feb 07 at 12:56 PM

@Daza

I appreciate where you are coming from with the customer service from your warranty centre; I have not had a problem to date with the Warranty from Victron, even as far as supporting second hand items still in the five year period. What I do sometimes have a problem with is the handling of my case by the distro (need a swift kick in the behind).

But possibly also a bit of clean up/clarification on your post. ESS and PV assistant on the system? Usually they aren't used together and pv assistant isn't used when grid connected.

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Answer 1 · 2024-02-07T13:38:31Z

daza answered · Feb 07 at 01:38 PM

@Alexandra firstly thank you for your responce. Yes the system is grid tired and I have the ability to sell/export surplus to the grid, the PV is an AC system, I have batteries hence the ESS assistant as far as I am aware that’s the only thing used to limit grid usage and utilities the batteries, PV is grid tired but on AC 1 out so critical output side, grid down PV still has power as far as I am aware I could be wrong and I’m happy too be wrong if not just to end this ongoing saga.

But the only way to stop the PV overcharging the system in a grid down state is via PV assistant frequency shift so it can’t overcharge the batteries or cause the whole system to go down as the BMS goes into overload protection.

The Quattro is wired and has exactly the same assistants on it as the multiplus did and can zero my smart meter out at -10 where as I couldn't even zero out the multiplus 2 at -50 grid setpoint, but the Quattro is not displaying any issues re balancing the grid.

The multiplus 2 wasn’t balancing the grid day or night so no PV at night. I’m at a loss I’m frustrated I’ve brought up the system not balancing before and that’s when people started mentioning the CT works better I got a Victron CT which makes no difference and the only thing that is different is the loan unit settings are the same, so forgive me for the post and how it sounds I’m just at the end of my tether and how a tatty loan unit works when my pristine unit won’t. Thanks for your reply, you guys and girls have more knowledge with Victron I’m happy to admit and that’s why I joined the forum and I’d love to continue and offer others help as best as I can but what’s been happening is just getting me more and more disheartened no offence intended just at whitts end!

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Feb 07 at 01:48 PM

It is a weird one using PV assistant and ESS was just and observation.

All ESS systems I have installed when the grid goes down (very common occurrence here) automatically frequency shift the PV inverter during blackout using the ESS assistant. I have never used the two together.

The Quattro you were using during troubleshooting, is one of the older units not the Quattro 2? To be honest we don't use the MP2s often. And am very curious as to what might be the cause of the issue in your system.

I mean there are alot of differences between the MP2 and the Quattro. replication of the issue you have might prove to be interesting. And troubleshooting can be along painful process speaking from experience.

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Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 07 at 02:18 PM

Worth having a read of this document if you haven't already because it clearly states that the PV assistant should not be used with the ESS assistant.

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/assistants:pv-inverter-support

Also use this Assistant for systems connected to the grid, that for a particular reason are not setup as ESS and therefor not using the ESS Assistant. Usually all mains-connected systems do need the ESS Assistant, and in that case do not also install the PV Inverter Assistant as well.

I would have thought that in the event of a grid loss, the Multiplus would not allow the overcharging of batteries from PV due to the DVCC mechanism. I would expect the PV inverter to just start throttling DC to AC inversion due to the lack of demand.

So I'd say removal of the PV assistant is a clear first step here regardless of whether it appears to be working on the Quattro. Then you can simulate grid loss to see if the DVCC system will protect the batteries once they are fully charged. I would very much hope they will. If not then I would move the PV to the AC-In side.

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daza Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 07 at 02:58 PM

@Craig Chamberlain thanks mate I have looked at it and yes it does say that but how does it know if PV is connected and where it is connected to as when you go though PV assistant it asks you where it’s connected and how much watts it is.

Connecting the PV to the AC input isn’t possible without an additional board as the house is now a sub supply unit where the PV is wired, garage were the supply is, is disconnected from the garage where the mains goes and then intercepted by the multiplus 2.

I would have to wait for a good bit of sun to test it without the PV assistant and the batteries upto 100%

I know what your saying but how does it see the PV and know where it’s wired? But it wouldn't explain why even at night it would function correctly at night.

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Craig Chamberlain daza commented · Feb 07 at 03:14 PM

Sorry, I cross posted in response to your response to Alexandra.

Understood re the need to install on Ac-Out1.

As for how it sees the PV etc, I'm not experienced enough in this config to advise but speaking generally, as Alexandra said, the AC coupled PV inverter should respond to a frequency increase by the MP2 if the MP2 can't absorb the energy being generated and should reduce output. That will allow the MP2 to stop the batteries being overloaded. This is part of G98/99 regs so the inverter should support this AFAIK, otherwise how would it comply with the grid regs.

When grid is present, the AC output from the AC coupled inverter will feed local loads and if there is more generation than demand locally including from the MP2 battery charger, then it'll just feed the grid instead. This will all be handled by the MP2's internal CT combined with the ET112 grid meter.

That's my understanding at least.

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Alexandra ♦ Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 07 at 05:55 PM

The PV for AC PV is programmed into the ESS assistant. Size of array and frequency shifting values.

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daza Alexandra ♦ commented · Feb 07 at 07:35 PM

Thank you both

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Answer 2 · 2024-02-07T14:42:05Z

daza answered · Feb 07 at 02:42 PM

@Alexandra oh I thought I had missed something, I used the PV assistant for frequency shifting as it allows you to alter it for systems that are not Fronius type integration, Sorry apologises im being lazy and it is a Quattro 2 5000 so exactly the same just two grid inputs and no input for CT hence back to the ET112.

The shop didn’t have a loan multiplus 2 unit at the time this was the nearest to it, had this displayed the same as the multiplus 2 then I would have had to look more at the sight but the fact it was changed and as soon as the assistants where fired up it started to balance the grid in seconds and exported more in less than half a day to keep import at zero than the multiplus 2 has done in a whole day. Both units where running on the latest firmware I had to update my multiplus 2, I also had to update the Quattro 2 as it came in three phase setup that did fox me I’m not going to lie. But I went back through everything especially when I updated with VRM on the phone and saved the file in icloud and it said it wasn’t the same I had to do it all again from scratch and I had the distro on the phone when I was doing it.

Theres nothing else I can do, the distro is at a loss and no one can explain how the exact same setting and environment is not affecting the Quattro 2. This distro is just saying Victron repair is saying follow Victron guidance to ESS, I bought the system to save money default is 50watts draw from the grid if I’m not mistaken to me this isn’t acceptable and I’ve set the multiplus 2 to -20 which still can’t achieve zero on the IHD smart meter. Which the Quattro 2 does at -10 pushing back on the grid bubble so I’m not using the grid, grid set point can’t be an option and then wrong at the sametime. Who knows if this is it?

All Victron repair say is follow Victron ESS, they are not interested in the VRM data that they have or the Octopus screen shot of when the unit was swapped over that very same day or the fact that the loan unit isn’t doing the samething, I’m not making it up the distro isn’t the data shows it. I didn’t think I would get this much static from Victron when the distro said yes unit looks faulty and the loan unit goes to show it’s not the site or the settings.

This whole thing has me twisted, but I’ll always say and this much is true the test of a good company is how they deal with problems, that’s what I thought I invested in and the very active community over another brand.

I’m happy to be wrong and shove humble pie in my mouth but the VRM data Octopus energy data, what I can see on the IHD, the distro and the loan unit it can’t possibly boil down to ESS when both are setup the same apart from the difference in grid setpoint. Hope this isn’t coming over as a pop I’m just at the end of my rope.

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Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 07 at 03:06 PM

FWIW, and with the greatest sympathy for what has been a frustrating experience, I think you need to forget about how you got to where you are now because that is in my opinion leading to a form of confirmation bias. I think you need to get your Multiplus-II back in service and remove the PV assistant and see what effect that has. If your distributor isn't aware that you aren't supposed to use these two assistants at the same time then it makes sense that they have concluded there is a fault with the MP-2. But that doesn't help you if they are wrong.

As for why the Quattro 2 is behaving differently, it could be any number of things but one possibility is that the order of the assistants might be different between your MP-2 and the Quattro as it says in the PV assistant instructions that it must be placed last in the list. It also talks about some requirements particular to 3 phase setups so again that might be a difference with the Quattro. Or maybe the Quattro is faulty - who knows. Too many ifs buts and maybes which I think are just a distraction now.

I really do hope it's just the PV assistant that needs to be removed and there is only one way to find out. Fingers crossed!

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daza Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 07 at 03:42 PM

@Craig Chamberlain noted and yes that is what it has lead me too, my system is just single phase Quattro 2 setup for the samething.

I may suggest it to the distro and to let me keep hold of the unit until I’ve tested without PV assistance and ensured it doesn’t completely blackout the house in a grid down situation when there is 100% battery with solar going.

Both systems have ESS then PV setup in that order.

Anyone from Victron know what happens when there is no PV assistant with a system other than fronius that talks directly to the multiplus 2 and wired to AC1 out as the frequency shift is setup in the PV assistant. It’s hard to be objective when it seems everything is pointing to the unit. I would have to be at home when I do this and I would need the battery at 100% like when I set it up to see if frequency shift actually worked.

Happy to try though, will have to wait for a sunny day and charge the batteries off of the grid and then see.

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Craig Chamberlain daza commented · Feb 07 at 03:46 PM

I think the ESS assistant will also perform the frequency shifting and I think that's the reason it can't be used with the PV assistant. @Alexandra is saying above that she has seen this happening with only the ESS assistant installed and I see below that @duivert is saying much the same thing and has shown a screenshot to that effect from the ESS assistant install guide.

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sharpener daza commented · Feb 07 at 07:12 PM

ESS will work with any PV inverter that complies with the relevant frequency shift standards, provided of course you have got the ET112 location configured correctly in the setup screens. My Multi II 5k works perfectly with an old StecaGrid installation dating from 2011.

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daza sharpener commented · Feb 07 at 07:34 PM

@sharpener and everyone that has contributed I say this with much appreciation thank you and just hope I’ve been a kn**b with the config and that’s the cause and the solution.

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Answer 3 · 2024-02-07T15:38:58Z

duivert answered · Feb 07 at 03:38 PM

hi daza,

i think the ess and pv assistant might be the problem, i have made a screenshot from ve configure
when setting up the ess assistant and you dont need the pv assistant (see note in screenschot)

im using a similar setup in the netherlands and also only use the ess assistant

veconfig.jpg (95.5 KiB)

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Answer 4 · 2024-02-07T15:50:48Z

daza answered · Feb 07 at 03:50 PM

Guys thank you @duivert are you wired to AC 1 out and not a solar system that integrates with Victron? So it will do it just on ESS ok it appears this could be it but for the life of me can’t see why the Quattro isn’t doing it, I’ll give the Distro a call tomorrow and get my unit back and try it if it is I’ll delete this post or just change the title and shove humble pie in my mouth in the corner on my own. Thank you gents and ladies! Much appreciated

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Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented · Feb 07 at 04:25 PM

The ESS Assistant asks you if you have a PV inverter on the output:

Click on "Yes" and you can configure the frequency just like with the PV Inverter assistent:

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duivert commented · Feb 08 at 07:33 AM

@daza i used to have a single phase system with an inverter on ac out, so i have experience with it :) hope it will solve your problem!

right now i have a 3 phase multiplus setup with 6 victron mppts and 15kw pylontechs

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Answer 5 · 2024-02-07T16:32:48Z

daza answered · Feb 07 at 04:32 PM

Thanks @Matthias Lange - DE so I am getting ESS confused with PV assistant then. So more points to config error on my part, which is a surprise as the distro said install PV assistant after the ESS, will defo call the distro and get the unit back to try this out. Again thank you all that have inputted.

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Answer 6 · 2024-02-26T20:42:23Z

@Matthias Lange - DE @Alexandra Right Back to this phantom draw 6 month old unit first posted here https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/249084/phantom-draw-from-multiplus-2.html which was help full with and said it could be a site issue which it could have but the below goes to confirm it’s not, It appears that i haven't enabled both the PV assistant and the ESS assistant so not a config issue But what i'm left with is the repair centre saying use the standard ESS setting but as far as i am aware the pylontech batteries given an alarm if not set to the spec that victron specify for the batteries exactly how ive setup the batteries, This differs from the stock ESS see link below for US5000 setup so not sure what settings they want me to comply with as there is no PV assistant just the ESS.

So now i'm being told that there is nothing the shop can do in regards to this as Victron are not going to repair or do anything with the unit and I'm going to be getting it back even though the shop has benched the unit without a load and the unit draws 200Watts with nothing connected according to the tech at the shop.

So i have demonstrated it not working at my house the shop has been over the VRM and said yes its not working properly draws about 500Watts at points. The repair centre is saying its fine sent it back to the shop they have bench tested it with no load and said its still not right it draws 200Watts with no assistants loaded and nothing on the output of the Unit, Now i'm being told there is nothing the shop can do even though they tested it and know its faulty they have to send it to me as Victron repair centre says no So i'm going to get a faulty unit back which isn't even a year old. No wonder i couldn't get my smart meter to read zero if its pulling 200Watts from the grid all by itself Without a load so i can only assume when a load is connected the draw from the unit is a lot higher which rings true with what the shop picked up on the VRM re the 500watts

PS Old beat up Quattro 2 loan unit from the shop is working fine go figure!?

I'm soo angry, feed up, frustrated with this whole saga from a 6 month old unit.

Ive always had a view that the measure of a company isn’t how well they deal with things that go right but how they deal with it when it goes wrong!

Apologies if this comes over bluntly i'm at breaking point and having my post altered doesn’t help that.

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:pylontech_phantom

Charger tab

Parameter	Setting
Battery type	Lithium
Charge curve	Fixed
Absorption voltage	52.0 V
Float voltage	51.0 V
Absorption time	1 Hr

Note: make sure to double check the float voltage after completing Assistants, and if necessary set it back to 51.0 V.

Note For off-grid use: ignore the 'bms assistant required' warning.

5.3 Inverter Settings

In the Inverter tab of VEConfigure

VEConfigure Inverter Parameter	Setting
DC input low shut-down	44V
DC input low restart	48V
DC input low pre-alarm*	48V

* The pre-alarm setting is dependant on your preference and on site specific requirements. You may wish for this to be activated earlier in an off grid situation to allow time to start a backup generator.

ESS System Settings

If you are using the battery as part of a grid connected ESS system, please review the ESS Quickstart guide and Design and Installation Manual.

The settings that are specific to the Pylontech battery in the VEConfigure ESS Assistant are below:

Select the externally managed Lithium battery option

ESS Parameter	Settings
Sustain voltage.	48V
Dynamic cut-off values	set all values to 46V.
Restart offset:	1.2V (Default)

Answer 7 · 2024-02-27T07:28:10Z

daza answered · Feb 27 at 07:28 AM

@Alexandra thanks I’ve gone through my dealer this is what is frustrating.
My dealer was the first option, but as we both have seen the multi miss behave and been told it’s ESS settings, the dealer bench tested it and seeing an issue without any settings enabled or load on the unit. Repair centre saying no issues and to return the unit to me who else can i turn to it seems all avenues are blocked? I’ll have a look at the link but ultimately boils down to the repair centre who are saying it’s fine even though me and the dealer are miles apart and both having issues with excess current draw.

I spent a lot of money and even more time on it as a source of pride that anyone that looked at it would be impressed with the setup now I’m some what dulled.

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Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 27 at 08:53 AM

Sorry to hear you’re still not having any joy Daza, but it sounds to me as if what you really need is a fresh pair of eyes to take a look at your entire setup in person. It’s very hard to remain 100% objective when you’ve been through the wringer as you clearly have. The confusion over whether you had the PV assistant installed is an example of this I think.

I realise this forum isn’t an official channel for support but if there is another dealer who is seeing this who is close enough to wherever you are to potentially provide that fresh pair of eyes then I would recommend pursuing that option. Maybe you could give a general idea of your location (eg. first half of postcode or nearby city) or just try to find another Victron dealer nearby yourself. I don’t expect another dealer to do this for free of course so you might need to at least cover any expenses. But it would certainly earn that dealer some serious kudos within the community if they could resolve your problem, and worst case if the problem remains then at least it gives you a second opinion upon which to take the next step (eg. sale of goods act remedy). Ideally Victron would jump in and send someone to investigate or cover the cost of another dealer visit.

Regarding the 200w no-load draw, I’d be interested to see if that is a real draw as measured by a current clamp on the input, and presumably significant heating of the inverter/charger(?), or if it’s a phantom draw (ie. an instrumentation issue). That said I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to power a Multiplus-II purely from AC for any extended period to assess self heating. Normally you would not power a unit up without first powering from battery as you know.

I’d be happy to take a look at your “Remote VE Configure” file and compare it with mine if that would help. I can’t remember if you’ve had someone look at your config already but let me know if you want me to do that and we can work out how to get the file to me.

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Answer 8 · 2024-02-27T09:52:38Z

daza answered · Feb 27 at 09:52 AM

@Craig Chamberlain Cheers mate, I’m not sure if a clamp meter is being used by the dealer all I’ve been told is they have seen it still drawing 200watts, so it’s not me testing it, yes manual says use batteries to power the unit I assume it’s powered but is still drawing the 200watts from the grid that’s what I got from the dealer.

i haven’t got the unit back I’m just using the old Quattro 2 that they gave me as an interim. Yes there was confusion mainly by me going through the ESS settings and then thinking it was the PV assistant so apologies for that. Yeah I had the dealer look over the VRM and access the Cerbo GX remotely I can’t get the config file for the multiplus as we wiped it when I was fault finding with them on the phone and the latest firmware was put on it the only one I have is the Quattro one which is behaving fine but I’m in a meeting all day via teams so can’t boot into boot camp to get the files.

The dealer has been brilliant and still has the unit and has continued to push back but I think they are getting to their end of there resolve with the unit, I’ve reached out to someone at Victron as a last hail, Mary! But yeah I can 100% send the file to you and appreciate your prospective regarding this.

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Craig Chamberlain commented · Feb 27 at 04:36 PM

Yeah it's hard to comment further without understanding exactly how the dealer tested the unit but I guess we can only assume that they know what they're doing.

That said, if they have agreed that there is a fault with the unit then I think the onus is upon them to either refund you or get you a replacement unit. I think I would be working towards that outcome if I was you, albeit as compassionately and reasonably as possible. If they could get you another MP-2 and it worked fine in exactly the same installation then that might just give them the ammunition they need to force the return of the original unit to Victron.

Best of luck - keep us updated if you can.

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