Quattro II - Wrong advertising promise or misunderstood ESS with generator?

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mrfrodo asked Nov 6, '22

Quattro II - Wrong advertising promise or misunderstood ESS with generator?

Hello friends of the blue devices,

is there a false advertising promise from Victron?.

I bought 3 Quattro II, a Cerbo GX and 6x MPPT 150/70 VE.Can. Then I installed 14kWp PV and a 11kWh battery with diyBMS. Everything has been going great for about 2 months - except for the advertising promise with the generator.

Of course I installed the ESS Assistant in all 3 Quattros - there's no other way if you want to use the PV power yourself and want to store excess power in the battery. My 8kVa generator with Honda motor and AVR on each phase is connected to AC In1 as the owner's manual recommends.

Germany with internal NS protection is set as the grid code. LOM activated at AC IN 1+2. The generator is not recognized. LOM disabled at AC IN1 - nothing! Then I found that the generator is set to 52Hz, so I set it to around 50Hz - the generator is recognized after a very long time and serves phase 1+2+3. But no charging of the battery - which is the most important thing for me. After this connection was not stable either, I switched to EXTERNAL NA protection. This keeps the generator stable in the system. However, there is no PowerAssist and no support from the Quattro II inverter.

IF I suddenly switched on 4000W the Quattro II throw the generator out of the system again. I only want to charge the battery with the generator and the other consumers as before with an inverter using MPPT and battery power. So as if the grid is available on AC IN2 and no generator is connected. It works there too. I've tried everything with the generator - minimum SOC set to 100% or always keep the battery charged - all the setting options...nothing. You can only use the generator to operate connected consumers in the house without any support from the QUATTRO II. That sounds somehow different in the advertising. It doesn't say "all this will only work with your generator if you don't install an ESS". Then I should have saved a lot of money and would have bought 3 Multiplus II and 3 additional power supplies with a total of 7kW to charge the battery with the 3-phase generator.

Is there someone among you who knows more about this and can help me?

Regards!

Multiplus-II ESS

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 09:46 AM

@MrFrodo

Sometimes the generator frequency goes wonky when a big load switches on, so what happens is it falls out of parameters for acceptance set on the Inverters, it gets kicked out.

So generator stability is important.

If the system is set to charger only does that help?

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mrfrodo Alexandra ♦ commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 11:33 AM

@Alexandra

I didn't think about it on Saturday to test the charging function.

However, this means that nothing is supplied in the house during this time.

How will the Cerbo behave?
It may turn off the MPPTs.
Who regulates the battery charge?
The Cerbo with connected diyBMS connected via CAN, or just the Quattros in charge mode?

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Alexandra ♦ mrfrodo commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 11:38 AM

In charger mode, the system should pass through power to loads. Or at least it does on mine.

The cerbo will remain on and reporting as well as controlling the mppts.

If you dont have smart batteries the inverter will use the internal algorithm programmed as far as I know.

You mostly need to check in realtime if there is frequency variations from the generator.

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baronner answered · Nov 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM

Sadly, I believe the Quattro II cannot handle generator input in ESS-Mode (yet?) See:

- https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/118193/victron-quattro-ii-48500070-50-50-qua482504010-cer.html

- https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/129478/multiplus-iiquattro-ii-state-of-co-generator-suppo.html

Changing the frequency in the Grid Code settings (see https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/128986/use-of-generator-in-a-quattroess-installation.html) could maybe be a solution, but is not stable for me (generator AC-in is only working for a couple of minutes) and is maybe not safe.

I have to disable ESS in my Qattro II (a lot of steps to get this done) if grid fails and I need to run my generator. I'm not alone, there are many other users on this forum strugling with this (@pepijn-hijdra, @Baxter , @jan-rotermund, @404, @pepijn-hijdra , @renne , etc.)

I love all my Victron equipment and support, therefore I can't believe Victron is ignoring this issue! Maybe Victron Staff can give a status update on this issue in this topic?

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mrfrodo answered · Jan 25, 2023 at 09:07 PM

@Alexandra @JohnC @Baronner @Baxter @jan-rotermund @404 @pepijn-hijdra @renne @Markus @Matthias Lange - DE

New VE.Bus firmware 501 is out.

Now the Generator can be integrate in the ESS.

From Victron:

VE.Bus firmware 501: adds Generator option into Quattro Grid-code configuration Woche 1

17. Januar 2023 18:06

Good day,

Today we released a new firmware version for our inverter/chargers such as the MultiPlus-II and Quattro series, VE.Bus firmware v501.

It fixes a long standing issue where our Quattros, when configured with a grid-code for ESS, would - sometimes - not accept an AC generator on its input.

This is fixed by adding a new option into the Grid-tab, allowing to set that AC Input 1 is a Generator.

This fix applies to ESS systems using a Quattro-II, and having a Generator for backup. But also applies to systems using the larger Quattros, typically used in combination with an external anti-islanding relay. A combination certified and approved for the German VDE- 4105.

Note that besides setting the AC Input 1 to be a generator, which fixes above described issue, it also allows the common Transferswitch settings to be set. Typically used to set a higher AC low disconnect, to prevent overload issues when stopping the generator.

How to install:

First of all a warning: updating the firmware of this product range is strongly adviced to be carried out by trained personel only. Doing the update will cause all settings to be reset to their default: requiring the product to be reconfigured.

End-users: please contact your installer.

Professionals: see usual documentation for how to update VE.Bus firmware.

A new version of VictronConnect, that includes firmware 501, allowing for an easy install;

End

Best regards,

mrfrodo

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404 commented · Jan 25, 2023 at 09:26 PM

Thank you for your efforts! I will test it next month and give you feedback on how well it works for me.

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Jan 26, 2023 at 04:31 AM

@MrFrodo

Yes basically the entire time you issues was the grid code is too strict for the generator to be accepted. With the ability to switch it to grid code 'other' on the generator input it is more flexible and will take dirty power from the generator. Glad there is a solution now.

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guy-cashmore commented · Jan 26, 2023 at 07:18 PM

GX390 is a single cylinder engine, meaning the rotational speed varies during each revolution, this makes the output frequency vary between each cycle, also the engine speed governor is very crude and does not maintain a stable speed as load increases, typically from zero load to full load the speed will drop around 6%. I have exactly the same issue with my system, I will try the new firmware in the coming days but honestly I don't expect it will solve the problem with this basic type of generator.

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baronner commented · Jan 26, 2023 at 08:10 PM

Nice find! Thanks for alerting us!

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pepijn-hijdra commented · Jan 30, 2023 at 05:08 PM

Thanks! I change the settings and it's working!

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nicopaulus commented · Feb 01, 2023 at 09:26 AM

Hey, Thank you.

Does the configuration with generator on input 2 and grid on input 1 also work?

Best regards

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guy-cashmore nicopaulus commented · Feb 02, 2023 at 10:12 AM

No, looking at VEConfig it only allows the (new) Generator option on input 1.

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2022-11-07T12:20:24Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 07, 2022 at 12:20 PM

@Alexandra

You mean that the genset-power will power AC OUT and will load the battery?

On each Quattro II I seted the max input AC current to 9Amps.
So I have 230V 2000W on each phase (up to 4500W on phase 2, less on the others))
The Generator has 8kVa.
If I need 1000W on L1, so the charger can use the rest (1000W) for charging battery.
Same on L2 + L3.
That would be the goal - as advertised!
Using füll power of the generator to load batteries.

But the Inverter will not work - I only have the maximum Power of the genset - right?

Whats about Mode 3 in ESS

I found this in ESS description:

6.2. Tell the Multi to charge the batteries

These instructions tell the Multi to charge at 32kw. Note that the Multi will only charge as much as it is allowed to by its maximum charge current setting as well as any parameters set by a BMS, in other words, it does the best that it can.

Note that the AcPowerSetpoint value has to be written at least once every 60 seconds.

6.2.1. Using Dbus

  /Hub4/DisableFeedIn = 1
  /Hub4/DisableCharge = 0
  /Hub4/Lx/AcPowerSetpoint = 32700

6.2.2. Using Modbus-TCP

Set register 38 to 0
Set register 39 to 1
Set register 37 to 32700

Okay, I think If I use Mode 3, then I have to write all existing settings.
I use IOBroker with Blockly and NodeRed - so it might be not a Problem - or ist it?

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 12:24 PM

@MrFrodo

The inverter will obey the input current limit set. What ever is not being used for loads will charge the batteries. I have not written any code to anything. Just using the features available normally to end users.

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Answer 2 · 2022-11-10T11:46:54Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 10, 2022 at 11:46 AM

I did another test yesterday.

Grid Code None, Power Assist active..... see the screenshots.

Generator FOGO FH9000TRA, 8kVa 3 phases with GX390 Honda engine. Alternator from NSM ZR100 LA. AVR for each phase separately.

The generator serves the house 3-phase in a direct connection (without Quattros) without any problems.

The result was sobering. The 3 Quattros switched the generator through very quickly, but with the very low load of approx. 400W it was a back and forth with the frequency until the Quattros then switched back to the battery. Then he charged the battery with 4kW and was quickly switched off again. Something resonates with each other.

The frequency went down to 48Hz and the Quattros intervened again and again and brought the frequency up to 50Hz. Very strange behavior. As I said, without the Quattros, fed directly into the house, it runs perfectly. The generator even manages the heat pump easily and my two UPS don't have to intervene. Yesterday they rattled constantly during the test.

I'll try it without PowwerAssist and without dynamic current limitation.

@Markus @renne @Matthias Lange - DE , maybe you have an idea?

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JohnC ♦ commented · Nov 10, 2022 at 12:32 PM

@MrFrodo

That's the VS switching frequently. You have it Ignoring AC at probably too low a V. The Hz variation is the genset gagging on the load changes.

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Answer 3 · 2022-11-10T11:49:44Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 10, 2022 at 11:49 AM

data-sheet-2019-z100-zr100.pdf NSM-Datasheet AVR760D-960D.pdf

data-sheet-2019-z100-zr100.pdf (863.2 KiB)

nsm-datasheet-avr760d-960d.pdf (2.2 MiB)

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Answer 4 · 2022-11-10T12:56:51Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 10, 2022 at 12:56 PM

@JohnC During the test, I manually adjusted the SOC to 5% so that the VS no longer ignored the AC.

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Answer 5 · 2022-11-10T13:20:31Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 10, 2022 at 01:20 PM

@JohnC

Ahh, the Battery was at 59% when I manually adjusted the SOC to 5% - BUT the Voltage was higher than 52,5V.
After a minute the VS switch to ignore AC - hmmm, I don´t realize theb time but it felt like less than a minute.

That might be the problem....I´ll test it.
Changing the "UDC higher than" up to 57V

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Answer 6 · 2022-11-11T10:21:24Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 11, 2022 at 10:21 AM

@Baronner

Thank you for answering!

If the Internet is available, changing the settings using a settings file via VRM is very easy and quick. However, it is possible that there will be no internet during a grid failure. Then it is only possible via the VE System Configurator. Then you have to select the settings file for 3 Quattros 3 times. Problems can also arise with the assistants. I still want to try today, after I've fixed my error with the cut-off voltage (embarrassing), if everything then works under gridcode None.

I got a tip that it should work together with the gridcode setting Europe and ESS..... I can't imagine it, but I'll test it.

Otherwise Victron have to exchange the Quattro II for a Multiplus II and then I invest in additional chargers......

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Answer 7 · 2022-11-11T21:35:25Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 11, 2022 at 09:35 PM

@Alexandra @JohnC @Baronner @Baxter @jan-rotermund @404 @pepijn-hijdra @renne @Markus @Matthias Lange - DE

I did some tests with the Quattro II today - maybe you are interested.

The gridcode setting with Europe and the slightly adjusted frequencies meant that the generator was recognized and supplied the house network with electricity, but the battery was not charged - so no insider tip :-(

The only setting that worked with my Generator, was with gridcode none, no power assist and weak AC. With this settings, the Quattros have charged the battery with approx. 3,5kW.
Approx. 0.5kW were additionally consumed in the house.
Not so much - at least 2kW are missing.
And a lot of changes in the configuration.
The ESS Assistant was not installed via Remote VEConfigure (VRM).
It shouldn't be like this, it's too much effort!
It must work as Victron describes it in the product description.
Who has a monster generator at home anyway?
How do you see it?

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Nov 12, 2022 at 03:29 AM

@MrFrodo

Is your generator also being affected by altitude? Most are rated at sea level. So the higher up you are the less able they are.

I have a few systems with smaller generators, they are a problem. But it is the generator not the inverter. The other factor is the avr and how it regulates or governs the motor speed. If a load switches on and the speed drops suddenly (due to load), the frequency suddenly changes, it gets rejected.

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djsmiley commented · Jan 30, 2023 at 07:12 PM

Weak ac input lowers efficiency. Did you try running with a base load? Some generators struggle with 'sudden' high loads. I've had multiple successes by adding a simple base load to the generator, allowing it to run with a (small) load before the multiplus kicks in.

Try adding a 200-300W heater/floodlight/whatever on all phases . Those will instantly turn on when the generator is running and provide a base load. This might be sufficient for the generator to remain more stable when the MP kicks in (and preventing the MP from disconnecting due to bad AC).

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Answer 8 · 2022-11-14T09:10:32Z

mrfrodo answered · Nov 14, 2022 at 09:10 AM

@Alexandra
Your hint is good.
In my case we are at about 350m above sea level.

If the Quattro II stayed in inverter mode and supplied power and simply charged the battery via AC IN1, then everything would be fine.

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Answer 9 · 2023-01-25T21:33:36Z

jwfrary answered · Jan 25, 2023 at 09:33 PM

If your using a 2.0 value still with your power assist, that's way to big for the generator you have, drop it down to 1.2 and I think you will find things settle down, and definitely turn off dynamic current limiter

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jwfrary commented · Jan 25, 2023 at 09:34 PM

Also 9 amps is prob to high for the current limit too, try dropping it down a touch

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Answer 10 · 2023-01-26T07:27:02Z

jwfrary answered · Jan 26, 2023 at 07:27 AM

If your using a 2.0 value still with your power assist, that's way to big for the generator you have, drop it down to 1.2 and I think you will find things settle down, and definitely turn off dynamic current limiter that's not for use with your type of generator.

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Answer 11 · 2023-02-12T10:15:02Z

mrfrodo answered · Feb 12, 2023 at 10:15 AM

Ok, so I bought 3x Huawei R4850G2 and 3x Wemos D1 Mini ESP8266 in Combination with a MCP2515 - https://github.com/KlausLi/Esp-HuaweiR4850-Controller

Now the Quattro II are in inverter mode and the Huawei R4850G2 charge the Battery.

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