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johnone avatar image
johnone Suspended asked

Multiplus UK G98 G99 non-compliance update

Dear Victron,

It seems very likely, from the email below (names and some details omitted) that the docs you submitted to ENA in early October will not be sufficient to gain compliance "due to important information being either incorrect or missing altogether".

Please could you provide some kind of timescale for when you will be able to provide updated documents? I note that NGED are, helpfully, willing to liaise with you in order to speed up the process.

Providing a response on this forum would, I'm sure, be very welcome by customers like myself.

Thanks

########

Good afternoon,

I have been asked to contact you, to explain the current compliance status, with regard to ENA EREC G99/1-9, for the Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 and Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 GX (which share a common compliance report).

As you may already be aware, as of 1st September 2022, any device that is recognised as an Energy Storage System (ESS) had to meet the full technical requirements of ENA EREC G99/1-8 (and subsequent revisions), where they were previously exempt from some of the newer requirements, that were introduced by the European Network Code: Requirements for Generators (RfG). This requirement was communicated well prior to September 2022, and was published in EREC G98/1-5 and EREC G99/1-7 in August 2021.
Many manufacturers pre-empted this change, and made their ESS compliant before need. Others waited until the deadline to submit renewed compliance documentation.
Where an ESS device had not met the requirements on 1st September 2022, it was marked as ‘non-compliant for new installations’, by WSP, in the ENA’s Type Test Register, and manufacturers were pushed to renew their compliance documentation.

The ENA, WSP and DNOs have the authority to determine Generating Unit compliance under (to name just one document, to avoid confusion) ENA EREC G99, which is an Annex 1 document of The Distribution Code of Great Britain (DCode).
DNOs have a statutory obligation (and licence condition) to abide by the DCode and (in particular) its Annex 1 documents.

As the Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 (ENA Type Test Register reference: VICEN/02689/V2) Energy Storage Device’s current status is ‘awaiting assessment’, in the ENA’s Type Test Register, I have conducted an in-house assessment, in order to provide our customers with a response sooner than we would be able to if we were to wait for WSP’s assessment. My assessment is based directly upon the requirements within EREC G99/1-9 alongside prior assessments by WSP (what they will be looking for), and my own experience.

I have assessed the Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 and Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 GX as being ‘non-compliant’ with ENA EREC G99/1-9, as things currently stand, due to a number of shortfalls in the compliance form. As Victron have made their form publicly accessible, via the ENA’s Type Test Register (i.e. it’s not a restricted document), I believe that I can elaborate upon this:

Advisory and failure points:

[information which could be considered commercially sensitive omitted]

Hopefully, you will be able to see that this compliance status has not come about due to minor inaccuracies, which could be forgiven, but due to important information being either incorrect or missing altogether.

As a consequence of these findings, National Grid cannot accept the connection of the Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 or Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 GX, in parallel with our Distribution Networks, until such a time that Victron have provided alternative or additional information that demonstrates compliance with the latest version of ENA EREC G99.

I am comfortable with you informing Victron of the above, either directly or indirectly (through your equipment supplier), so that they may complete and provide alternative or additional evidence of compliance. They should do so primarily to the ENA, but National Grid Electricity Distribution would also be willing to take an early look at any documentation, should Victron see this as desirable.

I am confident that, given time to complete the documents accurately, Victron will be able to make these devices compliant (perhaps with another firmware update) but, unfortunately, we will have to wait until they have demonstrated this before we may accept these on our networks.

Kind regards,

Engineering Policy
nationalgrid

Multiplus-II
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33 Answers
mvader (Victron Energy) avatar image
mvader (Victron Energy) answered ·
Dear all; yes. I can confirm. Finally. This was an enormously difficult one. With many mistakes, confusions and resubmissions.


Our apologies that this took so extremely long.


With regards to other models: yes they will be worked on as well. But I can’t give any dates.


Have a good weekend. Matthijs


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gazza avatar image
gazza answered ·

I do believe that we could discuss this on the community without moving forward with a solution.
This requires a direct involvement by Victron to solve? Have you contacted Victron directly regarding this response from the UK National Grid?

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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·
Thanks for responding @Gazza - I've been in touch with Victron sales and thought, perhaps wrongly, this forum was kind of talking direct to Victron (given staff do sometimes respond - a bit like, e.g., how the RPi forum works). I guess the main thing is reassurance from Victron they are committed to the UK 'DNO approved installs' market. Seems a quite confused situation, which isn't great for newbie customers! Thanks again.
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gazza avatar image gazza johnone commented ·

Yea Victron do chip in "sometimes"... but I think this is serious enough to be taken through customer service and the technical department. After all, UK distributors are knowingly selling to some "unsuspecting" customers.... equipment that effectively cant legally be used at the moment?

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wkirby avatar image wkirby ♦♦ gazza commented ·
Remember, the distributors may not know what application the device will be used for. Only the installer would know this as they are the ones who design the systems for the customer.

There are many applications where a MultiPlus would not be commissioned in a grid parallel ESS system, in which case a G98 or G99 notification or application would not be applicable.

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gazza avatar image
gazza answered ·

@Guy Stewart Is there anyone that you could recommend contacting directly to sort out exactly what the problem is,,, and solving it with the UK authorities? Thanks.

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
They are aware, this has been raised elsewhere already.
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johnone avatar image
johnone answered ·

To confirm what the National Grid engineer is reporting (above), the ENA Type Test Register has been updated today with all Victron devices listed as 'Further information required'. A little reassurance in that all other manufacturers' Energy Storage Device Inverters have been passed - i.e. it's not that the new regs are too stringent, just that the manufacturer has to demonstrate compliance.

https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/index?Action=Home

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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

We are following this topic closely as there are many clients/users of Victron Multiplus inverter/chargers in the UK. Let's hope Victron answers to all ENA's questions and submits all necessary details to demonstrate compliance for Multiplus devices.


Looking forward to see progress on this important topic,

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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

'The lead time for assessment is currently 4-6 weeks and there is no fast-track option. Latest assessments are updated on the site twice per month'

screenshot-2022-11-14-at-095831.png


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taddy avatar image
taddy answered ·

Hi everyone. Thanks so much Johnone for getting on the case with this. Would this response from National Grid mean that any existing Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 and Victron Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 GX device previiously passed and already connected to the distribution network should now be disconnected according to National Grid? I don't understand how something can be fine one month and then non-compliant the next! Also kicking myself that I didn't get my application in earlier!!!

Also, would it be possible (and legal) in the meantime to configure the multiplus ii so that it doesn't export to the grid so that the grid connection is only so that the thing can charge the batteries when needed? I believe I have seen that question asked elsewhere but there seemed to be some disagreement as to the answer!

Cheers

Tom

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wkirby avatar image wkirby ♦♦ commented ·
The new rules affect new installations, existing installations do not need to be decommissioned. In the same way, homes with outdated wiring standards don't need to be rewired, otherwise every home in the country would need to be rewired every two years or so.

A MultiPlus in standard mode which is not configured with a grid code and not configured with ESS is not able to feed in.
In standard inverter / charger mode it in impossible for the inverter to run unless the backfeed relay is open first, so it's impossible for the inverter to run parallel with the grid. This is the mode that installations such as vehicles, boats, emergency vehicles etc. use and such installations are specifically not allowed to feed in, only plugging in for charging.
Standard mode does not require permission to feed in because feed in is impossible.

If you are thinking about operating in ESS mode at some point then you definitely need permission before doing so.

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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

Some potentially good news, as others have noted below - a new compliance application to ENA today, which seems to include the formerly missing data and claims that firmware will resolve the matter. Less good is there are loads of new applications every day and now over 350 'awaiting assessment'. However, there's a nationalgrid 'Policy Engineer' who might be able to provide an early assessment - I'll try and chase this. Re differing views on whether or not it's OK to connect the device in 'standard' mode - that must always be a decision for the DNO to make (IMHO!).

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spazpeker avatar image
spazpeker answered ·

Looks like a updated certificate was uploaded today

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Shiv avatar image
Shiv answered ·

https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/Index?Action=ViewDetail&EID=72209410&tab=search

Would the Multis II GX approval (assuming it is approved) also apply to EasySolar II GX?

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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

I've found my DNO (nationalgrid) quick to respond and helpful - would have thought that is just the sort of question the DNO need to decide on.

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llyr-roberts avatar image
llyr-roberts answered ·

Just looking for an update on this.

Should I wait for the database to be updated or will my DNO accept the new certificate without the database being updated?

whatsapp-image-2022-11-28-at-152400.jpegwhatsapp-image-2022-11-28-at-152310.jpeg


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johnone avatar image
johnone answered ·

The answer to this will vary depending on which DNO it is. Fortunately, my DNO - nationalgrid - have a Policy Engineer who is willing to take a look at the docs on the ENA database and decide for himself. Consequently, I have received a G99 Fast-Track Installation authorisation letter from nationalgrid and have gotten the system up and running over the weekend. Still wrestling with the dogs dinner manuals, but it works - house has been on battery all day today - and is reasonably quiet. Overall, v happy with it. Try your DNO and see - clearly, the new docs satisfy the previous problems with compliance, but it will likely depend on if they have someone who is willing to make a decision.

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
Make sure v5 firmware has been installed.
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johnone avatar image johnone nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

Firmware on which device? M-P II upgraded to 498 yesterday. BTW, re fan upgrade, the supplier kindly agreed to provide a post HQ2225 M-P - noise not a problem so far.

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ johnone commented ·

Yes on the multi. V5 is one of ingredients for compliance. It contains grid code changes.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
I presume you mean v500? I've been running that for a few days and all seems well. I upgraded from v498.
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johnone avatar image johnone nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

Really important point by @nickdb (I think) - the firmware update that's going to be part of making the device UK grid compliant is v500, whereas I've done an update yesterday which gave me v498, which isn't enough. Thanks - will update tomorrow.

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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ johnone commented ·
VE.Bus FW 500 is not part of VictronConnect yet, you have to do the update via VRM portal or manually with VEflash.
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·
Yeah I did it via VRM via my Cerbo GX but did notice that Victron Connect only went up to 498
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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Yes, this is what caught me out - was assuming latest firmware would be synchronised across connection methods. Re the DNO, at least we know that it's v highly likely the ENA will eventually show 'compliance', but when?? As of today 386 devices 'awaiting assessment' including new applications today for M-P II 48/5000/70-50.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·
I wonder if the ENA entry submitted on Nov 15th should have mentioned the requirement for firmware 500? I see it still references v498 but the one from today references v500. Also, I see that the submission today has a newer G99 certificate dated Nov 28th which includes some changes on pages 7 and 8.


I suppose it's still possible that the Nov 15th submission might get compliance status and that the later submission is just a further refinement. But we should probably be prepared for another 2 week setback.

In any event, I'm sure this process isn't much fun for the Victron staff involved either so just want to say thanks for your perseverance. I shall raise a glass when we finally get across the finish line! :)

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Geez, I wish SP Energy was as helpful as your DNO. I couldn't get them to accept my installation onto the fast track scheme because 4.4kW is greater than the 3.68kW allowed for the battery element of a fast track installation. So even though my installation will contain a battery element and a DC coupled PV element and the total of both is only 4.4kW which is way less than the 7.36kW allowed, I have been told I'll need to go through the full < 50kW G99 process. Anyway, glad you had more success with your DNO. I was also told that even though a G99 type tested certificate is available for the MP2, I would need to have a witness test if I wanted to commission before the ENA database is updated. So I'm just waiting for ENA to update before I have another go at the application.
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John avatar image John commented ·

Hi Johnone,


Seems like you are all over this one - well done.


I applied for DNo (UKPN) approval for an MP-II 48/5000 installation in august. At the time, ukpn identifed the following:

’We need one of our designers to check your equipment details as your device is registered as non-compliant on the Energy Networks Associations (ENA) database.’

On 17th Aug my application was approved by UKPN, so I proceeded to order the equipment and over the following period installed it, with the help of my supplier. Everything is working well now and very happy.

I have since undertaken to supply the commission documents, and the UKPN website is asking for A2-4 site complinace and commissioning forms, under a sub-heading saying this is required because ‘equipment eligibility has failed’. Based in a look at some of the G99 info, this seems different to standard site commissioning forms. I’ve uploaded other defails and indicated that this isn’t required because the equipment is ‘fully type tested’ (which it was at the time).

I‘m hoping this will be the last I hear of it, but wondered if others think I should be worried? My assumption is that because I sneaked approval in just before 1st Sept (luck, not planning), I’m ok. But should I be concerned, because my approval was before but my commissioning was after. Somewhat regretting not saying that I commissioned at end of august now….

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johnone avatar image johnone John commented ·

I don't think you should be too worried about this, but I might check with the DNO (e.g. emailing them). This might sound risky but I've found my DNO to be reasonable and helpful. You've already made considerable effort to comply, they will recognise that. The general rule of thumb in the building industry is that, given rules are changing all the time, it's the rules in force at the time of approval that matter. When there are upcoming changes to the Building Regs, which means parts of the work will be more expensive, there is always a large number of 'the works been started' applications so that you can complete under the regs existing at the time of application - e.g. housing sites with just a short run of drains installed, as that counts as having started, even though the rest of the work might not happen for ages, sometimes years! Bottom line - having given you approval, you buy the kit and install on that basis.


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bm97ppc avatar image
bm97ppc answered ·

Why is the MP II 8000/10000/150000, not on the test list? The MP II's stops at the 5000 only the Quattro's go higher.

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
Because they are newer units, can’t be paralleled and as such are missing global certifications, not just for the UK.
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bm97ppc avatar image bm97ppc nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
Does this mean they will never be Certified?
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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ bm97ppc commented ·

Of course not, I am certain certification for future models is high on the list. They do first need to be enabled for parallel operations. This may require hardware changes and that could impact certification. Currently there is no commitment that existing models can be paralleled and by extension I would expect that to apply to certification as well, though that is speculation.

In rigidly regulated regions I would stick to what is known to be compliant, where applicable.

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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

I am not sure what has happened to Andy with NG but it may be worth a read?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/victronenergyusergroup/permalink/545938397347771/

As long as V500 is released and installed and ENA confirms it as 'compliant' everything should align in the right direction. I am going to wait for a couple of days to get the 'green light' and submit G98 form B - with the reference to the new Victron's submissions to ENA.

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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

Be good to know the date of the 'instruction to disconnect' email. The bit where they say "our policy engineer Matt Pope stated in his email to you" could be referring to the email extract posted at the top of this thread, from later October. Any way of confirming this?

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Wow, that's pretty bad if he actually got a disconnection notice. I really hope that FW 500 and the latest attempt at recertification puts this issue to bed once and for all.


I've just engaged g59projects.co.uk to handle my G99 application for me and I'm hoping by the time my DNO (SPEN) receives and starts processing the application that the ENA database will have confirmed compliance. I don't want to tempt fate but I'm hoping after several attempts maybe this time it'll be ruled compliant!

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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

brief details on the release notes on VE.BUS...

1669979355255.png


Looking forward ENA giving green lights...


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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Yeah, FW 498 was also an attempt to achieve UK grid code compliance but certainly the P(f) curve thing they mention in the FW 500 release notes does align with the changes in the G99 certificate. Fingers and toes crossed!
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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

V500: interesting that only G99 is the latest amendment ... so that means anyone with G98 application should be OK anyway. I am right!?


v500-g98-g99.jpg


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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

As per pic from ENA, the application submitted on 29th Nov is for G99 A only. G99 Fast Track seems just as easy as G98 and means you don't have to restrict the inverter.

2022-12-05-092731-887x674-scrot.png

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·
@Johnone I'm not sure that's what G99 fast track actually means. I've contracted out my G99 application to g59projects.co.uk as they have extensive experience of making applications on behalf of their clients for all DNOs. I enquired about whether my 5kVA.4.4kW inverter could qualify for fast track and was told that any domestic system under 7kW should qualify but export would need to be limited to 3.68kW. I was also told that in practice, fast track applications are taking just about the same time as full G99 applications. So I decided to just go for the full application in the hope that I will be permitted the full 4.4kW and not have to arrange for G100 export limiting.
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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Hi @craigc , maybe it's different depending on the DNO. I can only go by what has happened with my application. I asked the DNO whether to go for G98 or G99 and said I'd be willing to restrict the 48/5000 Multiplus to 16A. They suggested (once their engineer was happy with device compliance) I go for G99. I filled the form in and within 3 working days received a Fast-Track Installation authorisation letter which says "you may connect 4.4kW of export generation and the energy storage device to our distribution network" (I'm using 14kWh of Pylontech batteries). Once I've wired in the PV arrays (which will take a while - v awkward cable routing) I'll then send in the commissioning form. Job done. Think this a slightly fluid situation with DNOs well aware that if we had a cold winter they'll be v glad that lots of customers no longer consume electricity during peak demand periods!

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·

Yeah, @Johnone , as you say it seems very variable between DNOs and you're probably right that they must be rethinking how restrictive they want to make things given the energy security issues we face. Like you, my system comprises a Multiplus-II 48/5000 and I have two Pylontech US5000 batteries for 9.6kWh of storage. You'd think the DNOs would be falling over themselves to get an battery storage solution such as this onto the network asap, especially since I don't currently have any solar and therefore at best I will only ever export the same energy as I import minus efficiency losses and usage. Even when I do install solar (hopefully a 6kWp+ array before spring) the maximum I could export would be 4.4kW but it's probably going to be better to just do self consumption.

Anyway, we'll see what my DNO say in the coming weeks.

As for commissioning, do you actually need to have your solar array working in order to commission the system and complete the docs? I was hoping to just commission my system based on the battery storage solution since the inverter is the same whether solar is connected or not. Then when I add my solar array and MPPT controller, it's purely running on the DC side.

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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

You're right about the commissioning. My authorisation letter says "once the energy storage device has been commissioned, please send a copy ...". And, like you, my PV arrays and MPPT controllers are all on the DC side. I was just in a trench digging, wire routing mindset - will now take a look at what commissioning involves ...

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stefmari avatar image
stefmari answered ·

@Johnone yes indeed the submission for 5kw is only for G99 Type A however there are 4 Victron submissions on the 29th Nov.22. One of them is for G98 (2.47kW)

1670264182810.png


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ewan-bain avatar image
ewan-bain answered ·

I have 2 MP II 48/7000s up on the wall ready to go but can't complete G99 until Victron sort out this mess. I had been under the delusion these most recent submissions would finally be correct and progress would be made. Very disappointing to see they have once again got it wrong.

screenshot-from-2022-12-16-10-18-52.png


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l81ker avatar image l81ker commented ·

Same here, exactly. Same feeling of disappointment in the lack of transparency around the situation.

I have the Cerbo only powered from a 12v PSU, plugged in a socket, and just monitoring the FIT PV vs house consumption.

The inverter is sitting on the wall yet can't be powered up or configured till this is resolved.

screenshot-20221210-104658-chrome.jpg20221204-173314.jpg


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7hvn avatar image 7hvn commented ·
Its annoying they don't detail what information is yet required / missing from the previous submission!
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stefmari avatar image stefmari 7hvn commented ·
@7hvn and All,

We have seen most recent updates on compliance status as 'Further Information Required' and this most probably comes from interpretation of the requirements. We trust Victron have clarified with ENA what needs to be fixed and fix it. New year will bring more clarity so desperately required.

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johnone avatar image
johnone answered ·

Are we getting to the point where it's incumbent on Victron to say what's going on?

That's 3 failed applications since September (and the new requirements), while there are 142 devices of 'Type' 'Energy Storage device' from 16 manufacturers listed on the ENA db which have been deemed 'Compliant' since the September changes.

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7hvn avatar image 7hvn commented ·
@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) Can you, or one of your team, shed any light on what additional information has been requested and what the status is from Victron's perspective? Thanks in Advance.
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
I completely agree @johnone , it’s incredibly disappointing to see yet another compliance attempt fail. I and others have invested considerable money into Victron equipment in good faith but I’m starting to wonder if it’s ever going to be compliant or if it’s just not fit for purpose. I really thought it was going to go through this time and have paid g59projects.co.uk to conduct my latest G99 attempt and they told me they have other G99 applications in progress also waiting on Victron compliance.


@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) I appreciate this is difficult but if you can shed any light on what’s going on and what the next step will be then it would be very welcome. I need to make a decision soon on whether to invest further in the Victron ecosystem for solar PV (MPPTs etc) or to go in a different direction. Thanks.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain Craig Chamberlain commented ·

So, 2022 is coming to an end and Victron still don’t have a G99 compliant product! Let’s hope that they get their act together early in 2023 because there are a lot of customers, like me, who have invested a lot of money in Victron equipment who can’t legally commission it, and that is going to get ugly real quick. This gets fixed in January or I’ll be looking for another vendor.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Hi,

Just FYI, I reached out to one of the Victron UK sales guys listed on the contact page and one of them replied to say that:

...we're waiting on an updated test report from the lab which will address all pickups raised by the ENA. Once we have this, the ENA assessment takes around 3-4 weeks (based on previous submissions).

This was on January 7th but still no sign of a new certificate on the Victron site or an updated application in the ENA site. Hopefully they will get a certificate submitted soon as there have already been 72 submissions to ENA this month and there are more coming in each day.

Will update this thread if I see anything.

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David Molyneux avatar image David Molyneux Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Thanks for the info Craig. Must be slightly concerning for Victron that their vendor (kiwa?) keeps signing off compliance to the standard and issuing certificates, only to later find it's not compliant to the standard when reviewed by ENA.


I ordered my Multiplus-ii gx 5k and batteries back in August, when compliant. Everything arrived November, fitted and wired in by electrician in December (apart from final connection). I'm not sure how much longer to wait for it be be deemed compliant (maybe never?) before returning the unit to the retailer as not fit for purpose. It looks at least another two months to find out if the latest certificate they will receive from their vendor will be validated by ENA. I hope it's sooner because I'm getting a bit wound up by useless £2000 metal box on the wall, haha!


I was considering searching for a way to charge from mains while not being grid parallel (bypass dno approval), as some others have suggested might be possible, but I think will be better to just return it and replace with an inverter that is compliant. I feel bad for the supplier that sold it to me as they are a small business but not looking good right now.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain David Molyneux commented ·
Hi David, yeah it's a bit of a puzzle why the ENA keep bouncing the applications right back after they have been lab certified. I suspect there has been some sort of breakdown in relationship between Victron and ENA but that's purely speculation.


Yeah I'm in a very similar situation having ordered my kit in early September when it was still compliant and then when I went to get DNO approval later in September ENA compliance had been revoked. I also bought through a small business (maybe the same one) and the owner has been great, but he's as much in the dark about G99 certification as the rest of us.

My setup is also fully wired in and I have a lockable manual changeover switch to let me bypass the inverter and I have the mandatory lockable AC isolator. I don't see any problem with running the inverter in "charger only" mode just to give the batteries a charge from time to time, otherwise the batteries could potentially be damaged. And, taking that a bit further, if the batteries were charged and the AC isolator was switched off then I can't see a problem with flipping the changeover switch and turning on the inverter to power your critical loads in an "off grid", non-parallel arrangement. Of course that's just my hypothetical take based on common sense, not official advice. You would also need an independent earth rod installed if running like this.

Like you, I would prefer to get this issue sorted and move forward rather than having to return the goods and start the whole procurement process again. That said, I need to see progress soon because I'm currently holding off the purchase of my PV installation which was to be based on Victron MPPTs and 6.5kwp of panels but I can't place further investment in Victron in the current situation. I also don't want to go into the spring without a PV setup on my roof and that doesn't give me much time to make that happen.

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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Hi, further to the sales guy's comment that "ENA assessment takes around 3-4 weeks", interesting to look at applications to ENA since 2nd Jan: 83 apps - 11 approved, 30 'awaiting assessment' and 42 dismissed to 'further info required', many of them decided within days including 3 Quattro apps. These were just a one page "it's compliant" statement with no supporting info - do Victron understand the compliance process??

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·
I see that Victron have submitted revised ENA applications today for the Quattro devices and if I look at the associated certificates, they are the same ones that were rejected in that last week or so and are dated 5th December 2022. I wonder if some sort of clarification/agreement has been reached around whatever issue was preventing compliance. It'll be interesting to see if they submit revised Multiplus-II applications soon as well.

It'd be nice to know what's going on...

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gr0mit avatar image gr0mit Craig Chamberlain commented ·
What Johannes Boonstra of Victron said was that the report you see is not the only submission to ENA. Type approval reports are commercially sensitive and not everything is public. But I agree, this is not looking good. I'm pretty annoyed tbh, as I bought my Multiplus II in August - but by the time the DNO responded to my G99 submission it was Dec and the unit was no longer compliant. I've updated the firmware to the latest in order to get compliance to Ammd. 8 but still no sign of approval from ENA.
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strix avatar image strix Craig Chamberlain commented ·

For what it's worth, I emailed Messrs Vincent and Gordon recently for an update, but have yet to hear back from them. Poor guys are probably utterly exasperated by the whole thing, much as we are.


The TTR is updated only twice a month, but they don't say when in the month. So it is possible that there have been a more recent submission. If there have been, they must have been pretty recent.

Based on the Kiwa report of 28 November, and a bit of Googling of the LFSM-O issue, the MP2 48/3000 just squeaks under the threshold. But it's formally a pass, nonetheless.

One possible bone of contention is that Kiwa say by way of addendum:

Test results indicated in this annex are representative for MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 and MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 GX and are worst case values for the model family mentioned on the certificate.

without listing the actual data. This may not be enough for the ENA. That said, if that were the only problem, it does not explain why the 3kVA model has not been marked as compliant.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain strix commented ·
I emailed Peter Gordon just today and got a reply in just over an hour. As you say I'm sure these guys are getting pressure from customers like us but to be fair Peter has been as helpful as he can be in the circumstances. Hopefully he won't mind me repeating what he said to me, especially if it saves him getting a few extra emails. :)


Anyway, he says the lab test has been completed and they are just waiting on the report being sent through which will then be submitted to the ENA. He says the ENA processing time seems to be around 3 weeks at present.


Regarding the ENA, as far as I can see new applications appear continuously for the most part but I believe updates to those applications only happen twice a month. So we should see the applications more or less as soon as they are submitted. I also think maybe there is some sort of triage of applications because I've seen some updated to "awaiting further information" very soon after submission. But I think compliance is only granted twice a month. Just guessing from observations though.

Hoping we'll see the new cert soon.

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strix avatar image strix Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Yeah I got much the same email at about the same time you did. He said that some information was given to ENA on the 29th, which I took to be of November because he said that the 3-4 week turnaround period pushed them into the Christmas break.


But he then went on to say that he's waiting "the test report/certificate" to be uploaded onto the ENA website, after which the assessment period begins — which very much sounds like they've put a new iteration through.

If that is the case, and given that ENA currently say turnaround is 4-6 weeks, we're probably looking at no less than two months before certification. Assuming it passes this time.

I also think maybe there is some sort of triage of applications because I've seen some updated to "awaiting further information"

Agreed re. your interpretation of when things are updated, but "latest devices" tab all say "awaiting assessment" rather than "waiting further information".

Current oldest application in the "latest" list is dated 19 Jan, so I'm inclined to think that the difference between awaiting assessment and awaiting further information means someone actually has looked at the paperwork.


So I guess it probably is worth installing my unit when I get some time off (any day now). I've still got to reapply to the DNO before I can energise it anyway (my last application lapsed and was for a different inverter anyway), so I expect I could be looking at a minimum of 3 months before I get to actually use it.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain strix commented ·
I just noticed that all 3 Quattro devices have been granted “compliant “ status by the ENA. This is the most encouraging sign of progress I’ve seen so far!

Of course I’m assuming the Quattro shares much of its architecture with the Multiplus-II but I think that is the case from what I’ve seen

Hopefully Victron will now push ahead with the rest of the product range starting with the Multiplus-II



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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Yes, I just saw that too - very encouraging!
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strix avatar image strix Craig Chamberlain commented ·
And also @Johnone; excellent news indeed. The soonest we are likely to see any news is probably the week of 13 February if, indeed, the filing of 29 November passed to ENA's satisfaction.


But, if I understood Philip Gordon from Victron correctly, it may be that there was another round of testing to be done, in which case (given ENA's current lead time), we are likely looking at a minimum of 8 weeks before the MP2 inverters get the green light.
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johnone avatar image johnone strix commented ·
It could be sooner- there's a bunch of applications which have been turned around in 10-14 days, including the Quattro apps - submitted 17th Jan, approved 27th Jan. As @craigc notes, Quattro and Multiplus II are v similar architecture.
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strix avatar image strix johnone commented ·

My timeline estimate comes from ENA's current advice, that the TTR is updated only twice a month (evidently, middle and end of month), and that current lead time for new assessments is 4-6 weeks.

We've just had an update (assuming this round is finished), so absolute earliest is next update due mid February, and that assumes that the filings of 29 November pass ENA's scrutiny.

Philip Gordon's comment to me was that they were currently waiting for a certificate which had to be appropriately prepared and uploaded to the TTR site at which point ENA's assessment period commences, from whenever whatever date it is uploaded.

It's possible that the ENA need only one or two minor things to be checked off, in which case assessment may not take the full 4–6 weeks. If the planets align just right, best case seems 4–5 weeks away, otherwise it may be more like 8-10 weeks if the timings are worst case.

Like so many others, I am quite keen to get my G99 application in, especially given NG-ESO's Demand Flexibility Service which could potentially save us around £5/day (or would, if our smart meters actually worked — but that's a Bulb thing). So I would dearly like it to be sooner, I am just not very confident that it will be.

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kryten avatar image kryten Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Im sure I checked the register a few weeks ago and it showed for the 48/5000-70-50 that an updated application was awaiting review. But now it says more info required which makes me think its been rejected yet again. Anyone any idea? Cheers!


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simon-jukes avatar image simon-jukes kryten commented ·
You are correct, it was showing as awaiting review and then changed back to awaiting more info. Can only assume it failed again


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eamonno avatar image
eamonno answered ·

I’m irritated too, because I specifically asked about this prior to ordering my 48/5000. The response received seemed to me to be pretty positive, and quite some time has passed since my enquiry. And I do think this is the right place to bring this up: the forum site is hosted on Victron.com, after all. 8efc2f11-208a-4122-a43c-dfb71d599a17.png


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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

This site may share the same domain but I can assure the moderation team are all users/installers etc, volunteering their time.

We understand your frustration but there is little we can do to help and we also don’t have the visibility into the finer details of this issue.

The best advice that can be given is to use the formal contact information from the company site and use this to trace down someone who can help you, they, in the most part, aren’t here.

If we could shed more light we would, and I, certainly have tried.

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johnone avatar image johnone nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

If you're not in the UK I guess it's more difficult to comprehend the predicament UK customers are in and what the main issue for customers is. Very obviously there is commercial sensitivity at play here, but what isn't working is the staff-here-when-they-choose policy on this forum - coupled with the lack of contact details on the company website.

So @nickdb what would be useful is details of who to contact. Yes, we know about the P.O. Box in the Netherlands, and have tried the UK sales guys (e.g. see the answer above) - can you provide any other 'formal contact information'?

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ johnone commented ·

If you have contacted the two people listed for the UK, and those for the Netherlands on the site at https://www.victronenergy.com/contact, then that is pretty much your contact points.

While some staff do frequent the site, it is not intended for that purpose, and is meant to be for the people, by the people, if you don't mind that platitude.

Please don't shoot the messenger, if we could help we would but we simply aren't privy to this information and it is as frustrating for us not to be able to help.

Having a few predicaments of my own, I do understand how you feel.

Sorry not to be of more help, I have no doubt there are a lot of people busy sorting this out, and I agree some transparency would be better.




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eamonno avatar image eamonno nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
Thanks for that, Nick. Good to understand: I’ll direct my enquiry to the company. Of course I do appreciate what you guys do: the forum is a great source of good info.

I’ve worked in a high-compliance industry, and I am sure that there is lots of flapping going on below the surface at Victron. It does seem that they may have upset some folk on the regulatory side, but these things usually get sorted out.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image
Craig Chamberlain answered ·

Looks like some activity on ENA register today with new certificates for the Multiplus-II range here:

https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/TTf1l3s/VICEN_02552_230213105440.pdf


So far only the 3000VA model has been entered on the ENA database as awaiting assessment but the certificate covers all models.

Fingers crossed this time compliance is restored.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Unfortunately these latest submissions to ENA have gone to "awaiting further information" already! I have no words... :(
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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Not again. This is getting farcical now.


Victron should fire Kiwa ASAP and get SGS on the case. Kiwa have clearly proven themselves to be incompetent.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain dancrompton commented ·
@danmc there is a fresh submission on ENA today for the 5000VA models. There is also a new certificate which I'm about to go through to see what has changed. I can already see some minor changes on the front page so I wonder if this is just a general tidy up.
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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton Craig Chamberlain commented ·

I suspect the 5000VA's applications will also turn to 'Further information required' by Tuesday given how similar they are with the 3000VA models..

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain dancrompton commented ·
Maybe but if you compare the latest certificate with the one from late November, there are a number of significant changes. It also splits out the 3000 and 5000 into separate test results where required.

I'm not going to make any bold predictions given previous disappointments but I'm reasonably optimistic.

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strix avatar image strix dancrompton commented ·
As Craig says, there are some important changes to the certificate results, particularly in the charts for (from memory) Tests 2, 3 and 5. These look much more sensible than the version attached to the 29 November submission, which gives me some faint hope that it might be approved this time around.


That said, I don't expect it to be turned around quickly.
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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton strix commented ·
Fingers crossed.
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ewan-bain avatar image ewan-bain Craig Chamberlain commented ·

It's a bit concerning that the LFSM-O results on the new cert are specific to the MultiPlus-II xx/3000, you'd think a submission for the 5000 would have results for the 5000 for the main thing that's changed in the requirements, hopefully it's all fine and i'm worried about nothing.

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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

I wonder if this is relevant - Victron's postion in the Australian ESS market? According to the below post this morning: "Conclusion is that Victron have made a marketing decision to not compete in the Australian Grid Tied ESS market"

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/182148/multiplus-ii-48300035-32-and-cec-approval-australi.html?childToView=188026#answer-188026

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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton johnone commented ·

From everything I've read/watched over the past 6 months while planning my system the Aussies seem to be considerably more anal than us when it comes to legislation around solar equipment. And everything else for that matter. Given the Quatros have already been approved in the UK and the Multi is approved for use in the EU, and as we don't seem to be straying too far from their legislation in most matters, hopefully it will only be a matter of time before they are approved for use over here.


I suspect the nature of the Australian market would have been a major factor in why Victron abandoned their attempt to get certified for grid use over there. The typical Victron user in Oz is likely in the middle of nowhere, where a grid connection is not an option. Whereas in the UK 99.9% of users would have and would require a connection to the grid.


Worse case I suppose they could still be used without a grid connection. Not ideal though. Personally I was counting on being able to charge the batteries from the grid on a lower rate in the depths of winter as I suspect most were. I'm glad I went to the extra trouble of splitting my high and low loads into two CUs each with their own transfer switch between the Multi and the grid now though.


I haven't looked into it yet, and hopefully i'll never have to. But worse case scenario, perhaps some kind of grid protection device sitting between the Multi and the grid would suffice?

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dancrompton avatar image
dancrompton answered ·

I've been obsessively refreshing that page waiting for some movement. Fingers crossed this is it. We've been here before though I believe, back around December 5th.

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johnone avatar image
johnone answered ·

ENA database watchers a bit slow today - or is it despair? ... latest Victron attempt has new status today of 'Further information required'.

All of the applications from 1st Feb to 21st Feb have been looked at - 52 are 'compliant', 205 are 'Further information required'. Perhaps the one thing we can be more sure of is the turn-around time is now much shorter (please, no more sales person saying "yeah, it takes about 6 weeks").

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strix avatar image strix commented ·
@Johnone, oh, that does not look good. It sounds like it will require another loop through Kiwa once it is established what exactly the assessor is unhappy with.


Victron aren't being forthcoming about exactly what that additional information needed actually is. They may see it as a matter of commercial sensitivity. Or, it is possible that they don't know. Some test facilities provide a "pass/fail" result only, and will not tell you why it failed. But that doesn't seem very likely here if the ENA's test agent is demanding more information (you'd expect them to say what information they're demanding!)

Victron are not helping themselves by this lack of transparency, but I suspect Victron are not the problem, Kiwa is. We can't tell, however, because the published report on the ENA website is only part of the compliance documentation. We don't get to see everything so we can't tell what may be amiss.

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David Molyneux avatar image David Molyneux commented ·

I think I've said before but Victron probably now need to get rid of Kiwa and pick a testing / certification supplier that is capable of getting ena compliance status. Many other inverter manufactures are managing to do this, so would suggest they start looking at their certifiers.

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strix avatar image strix David Molyneux commented ·
As much to the point, Victron used a different outfit for their recent Quattro certifications, and they apparently sailed through without any trouble. So yes, Kiwa does seem to be the problem here.
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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton commented ·
I think i'm resigned to the fact i'll be running my Multi in Off Grid mode for the foreseeable. What a sh**show.
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Yeah I noticed this earlier this morning but didn't really know what to say that hasn't been said before, again and again.

I've just sent my commissioning forms off to my DNO for my own installation so I'm hoping this doesn't cause any last minute issues.

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johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

I'm at the same stage - sent the commissioning forms in yesterday afternoon, saw the ENA saga continuing this morning but have just now received my G99 Connection Confirmation from the DNO (nationalgrid). Hurray! All done.

Strange that this and other installations are being approved and signed off at the same time as ENA will not accept the Type Testing docs from Victron. Maybe the 'problem' is very borderline?

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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton johnone commented ·
Congrats. I'm going to just submit my G98 in that case and see what happens.
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·
Nice one mate! I hope I get a similarly fast confirmation from SPEN but I have my doubts because when I sent my docs on Tuesday evening I got a bounce back email to say their "mailbox is full"! Then just an hour or so ago I got a receipt confirmation to say they are processing my response. So I don't know what to expect next. I'm certainly not holding my breath while waiting on confirmation.


But yeah I can only imagine the ENA issue is more a procedural thing than a fundamental shortcoming with the inverter. The fact that 205 of the applications published in Feb have been rejected as "awaiting further information" also suggests there are a lot of nits being picked by ENA and not just with Victron.

Good luck @danmc with your G98 application. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be signed off but you just never know do you... Definitely worth a shot though.

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David Molyneux avatar image David Molyneux johnone commented ·
My electrician finally returned and switched on the 5kw gx last week (no solar, I'm just using for off peak battery charge and self consumption). I can only assume then that he also received DNO authorisation (from Northern). He's coming back next month to do some other work so I'll ask him what happened / timings etc.


In reality the ENA database only really exists to make it easier for DNOs to manage the ever increasing volume of applications. The DNO can simply check for the green light instead of having to refer everything on to their more skilled staff / engineers, whose time is no doubt in high demand. Clearly, by the number of DNO approvals, there is nothing about this equipment that is a risk to DNO / grid. So it seems just to be an admin issue between ENA and Victron, which is very frustrating.

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bm97ppc avatar image bm97ppc johnone commented ·

@Johnone Out of interest, Which DNO are you with?

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johnone avatar image johnone bm97ppc commented ·

The DNO is nationalgrid (formerly Western Power Distribution). But, I suspect there will be variation in how these things are dealt with depending on where you are within the nationalgrid network!

There will be many installations where the installer doesn't inform the DNO, especially given the lack of incentive now to export excess PV. Some DNOs are, then, very glad you've bothered to contact them and are very helpful - that's my experience with nationalgrid in the East Midlands.

Some DNOs seem only interested in large-scale generation and see domestic generation as a PITA - and then apply all the complicated rules and regs which are barely relevant to a Victron ESS installation, where things like LoM, G99 Protections etc. are all dealt with 'in the box'.

Just have to accept it's an emerging market with many wrinkles. Worth all the frustration in the end though. Having said that, my next problem is suppliers ending Economy 7 by cutting off RTS - but that another story!

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simon-jukes avatar image simon-jukes johnone commented ·
Same here, DNO approved back in October, commisioning form sent in, received my copy of the agreement, still waiting on the DNO coutersign and send it me back. Chased a few times but still no signed agreement This is a MultiPlus 2 48/3000 installation
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Paul Beskeen avatar image Paul Beskeen johnone commented ·
I have also received permission from my DNO, UK Power Networks (east of england), for connection of 2x Multiplus II. Application was handled by G59 Project Ltd. I wasn't however aware that the commissioning documents aspect wouldn't be handled as part of their package - though to be fair, they have been very helpful in answering my questions.
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain Paul Beskeen commented ·

@Paul Beskeen yeah, I was a bit surprised by that as well but actually when I looked at the Form A3-2, it's mostly just copying admin details from the original application and circling a few boxes and adding in text to describe the location of the installation and the lockable isolator. Also the various commissioning checks which can't really be answered by anyone except the person(s) doing the actual commissioning.

Hopefully I've filled it in correctly. I decided I didn't need to complete the "Standard Application Form" because it's only for larger installations, and I didn't think I needed to provide the "EREC G100 Export limitation scheme" test form because my export limit is the full 4.4kW of the inverter and thus no G100 limit is needed. I did provide an updated circuit diagram even though G59Projects said I could just provide the same one they sent with the application.

Anyway, I'll hopefully hear back from SPEN soon and will let you know what they say.

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ewan-bain avatar image
ewan-bain answered ·

Looks like the Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50, 48/3000/35-32 and the GX variants are all back up today as "Awaiting assessment", maybe the fact they have submitted all of them at once indicates a level of confidence they've worked out the problems, but I'm not expecting much.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Anyone else getting dizzy riding this merry-go-round?

If these devices are finally approved this time, the ENA are going to think their website is broken when all of us stop refreshing the page! :))

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daza avatar image daza Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Lol im not going to pull the trigger on this until it’s approved as the DNO stuff really doesn’t like that its not ENA certified
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dancrompton avatar image
dancrompton answered ·

The 3000 has finally passed! Surely only a matter of time now for the 5000 which has reverted to more information required.

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simon-jukes avatar image simon-jukes commented ·
Finally, been waiting for the 3000 myself and it's been a long time coming, fingers crossed for the 5000
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strix avatar image strix commented ·
How perfectly farcical all this has been...
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johnone avatar image johnone strix commented ·

Knock, Knock Who's There?

Vic 'n Ron

Sorry, 'Further information required' ...

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spazpeker avatar image spazpeker commented ·
They both had more information required, so here’s hoping!
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1234enough avatar image 1234enough spazpeker commented ·

Farcical is not the word FFS

screenshot-20230317-080601-chrome.jpg

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Paul Beskeen avatar image Paul Beskeen 1234enough commented ·
What a joke. I swapped out a 10k for 2x5k as g99 wasn't even applied for the 10k, and the 5ks were at least in the certification pipeline... So much extra hassle, money and stress. Victron have badly let down their customers with their handling of this. Official radio silence on a topic that is a critical issue for so many is unforgivable. Truely an utter debacle!
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flamegrilledmatt avatar image
flamegrilledmatt answered ·

Surely it’s time for an official statement from Victron re the 5000 model. I as well as many others have installed and spent many £ on this gear and as it stands it’s just a pretty blue brick on the wall. Come on Victron, it’s your gear - how about a little bit of customer service!! I’m currently losing all faith in this kit ever getting approved.

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strix avatar image strix commented ·

Some of the charts in the test reports filed against each application in the ENA TTR show some marked differences between iterations. The reports don't explain what the test conditions are or what is being done in each case so they're not easy to interpret but, with each successive test report, their meaning becomes a little clearer.

Either each test report represents successive refinements by Victron, or they represent differences in the way that Kiwa have been testing these units (or possibly both). Whichever is the case, Kiwa have shown themselves to be conspicuously incompetent — for if the units were not to standard without further firmware tweaks, Kiwa should not be declaring them as compliant, and if there are no significant changes to the designs under test, then Kiwa does not appear to know how to test them to the ENA's expectations.

It is good news that the 3kVA model is now accepted as compliant, and one might hope that this means certification of the 5kVA model can't be far behind, especially as Victron say that they along with the Quattros etc all have a comparable architecture.

But they're being tested against different standards (G98 vs G99) and the reports themselves look very different between the 3kVA and 5kVA models. However similar they may be in principle isn't reflected in how similar they are in practice. So we may be in for a few rounds yet. That said, this latest round was quite short. So we may get lucky anyway.

Victron would have done better with SGS, who got the Quattros certified back in January, than persisting Kiwa.


@danmc

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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw commented ·

The best practice has always been to apply for the G99 BEFORE ordering any equipment as it requires a formal DNO offer / approval whether it be for the equipment, export aspect or anything else before you can proceed. Those who clearly elected to not strictly follow this path, it sadly is solely on their heads and not the manufacturer's.

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strix avatar image strix ejrossouw commented ·

I'm sorry, but it's unreasonable to blame customers for Victron's failure to maintain compliance when they assert compliance on their website and even provide a certificate to that effect, even though that certificate isn't accepted by the relevant authority.

Consumers are legally entitled to take vendors at their word on such matters (§11 Consumer Rights Act 2015). It doesn't help that the models in question remain compliant in Northern Ireland and that Victron's website doesn't limit their statement of compliance to NI only.

Also bear in mind that there was, at least via some distributors, some significant delay between placing the order when the model was still compliant and taking delivery of the hardware because of demand, and that there is a time limit to complete commissioning after the G99 permit is granted.


If customers have problems owing to local conditions, that's another matter, but that is not what is going on here.

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johnone avatar image johnone strix commented ·

Everyone is having to cope with a rapidly changing industry. Back in August last year it was reasonable to assume you could G98 'fit and inform' a MP-II 5k system, by restricting it to 3.6kW. By October, my DNO (nationalgrid) had decided they would no longer allow that and that G99 was required and they decided (they decide for themselves, they don't automatically follow ENA) the MP-II 5k wasn't compliant.

That is: you could reasonably order a system in August, then at that time you had to wait for e.g. Pylontech batteries, which became non compliant by October.

I think people on here have had to endure enough - especially the radio silence from Victron - without being told it's their fault. That's clearly not how things actually panned out. For me and some others on here it wasn't too much of a problem as the DNO decided in November that MP-II 5k was compliant and have, after commissioning, provided a G99 Connection Confirmation. For some others on here their DNO haven't been as helpful.

As I see it, rhe root of the problem for people on here is twofold: Victron silence and inconsistent DNOs - even different regions within a DNO applying the rules differently.

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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw johnone commented ·

People sadly get burned choosing to jump the gun and I am all to aware of the supply issues and customers keen to get kit last year. I even had an Irish customer drive over to collect batteries from me. I did however always explicitly indicate to mine G99 DNO approval is required FIRST and then order as I cannot accept returns because they did not get the necessary approval regardless of the reason. Their decision to risk ordering prior was at their expense. Given the fast moving industry, even more reason to not assume what applies today is ok tomorrow.

Restricting a system was never an acceptable avenue to get G98 even though the highly questionable practice was adopted by some installers. The system's registered capacity has always been what should be applied for, e.g. 4.4kW in your case and that is clearly stated on the application form.

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Yes, there are many participants in the forum with whom I dealt and believe me, same DNO, totally different outcomes sometimes. Admittedly the UK infrastructure, especially in remote areas, are just not capable to cope and this can vary a lot in application outcomes and in part explains some of the inconsistency.

I am not sure what Victron can say other than we are working on it as anything else may just result in raising false expectations. I am also definitely not aware of any other manufacturers that will do more?


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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw strix commented ·

@strix Victron is actually is under no obligation to maintain compliance. However, you as the installer have the responsibility to make sure it complies and the DNO application and ENA is one such mechanism to ensure things are done to the DNO's specification. They have however then obtained new certificates, albeit a bit after the event so fulfilled that expectation of yours. Even then after Victron had new test carried out and certificates issued, we know that was not acceptable either and yet again the most recent certificate issued this year seem to have resullted in a similar outcome? This makes an absolute mockery of the G99 standards in the UK, given if for G98/G99 the prescribed / required tests are carried out and you achieve a pass, why is it a fail in the UK? This explains why some well known brands have actually elected not to even release some of their products in the UK market.

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dmsims avatar image dmsims ejrossouw commented ·
Victron need to update the website if they are not going to supply grid tied products then!
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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw dmsims commented ·

It is not a UK specific website, but a global one so there is nothing wrong with retaining historical documents. Even if it was tested to the latest standards as it was last year, it does not imply it was approved by ENA and a court most likely will find against you on the grounds that assumption and ignorance is not an excuse and you should also have checked the register.

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strix avatar image strix ejrossouw commented ·

For as long as Victron sell into the GB market as grid-compliant inverters then yes, they are obliged to maintain compliance or risk being found in breach of contract in civil action.

As much to the point, their liability extends to distributors and installers, whether by way of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 or the Sale of Goods Act 1979. As I have already explained to you, these Acts imply terms into contracts of sale that require that goods be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. Terms seeking to limit such liability are void.

Inverters sold as grid-compliant that do not meet current G99 standards are neither fit for purpose, nor as described by Victron.

If, as I infer, you are an installer or a reseller in the UK, and you are unaware of your legal obligations, you would do well to consult your solicitor — else you trade at your own risk. I think you will find that you cannot refuse rejected goods on the grounds that they were neither fit for purpose nor as described.

It's a different matter if the customer can't get a G99 permit by reason of local conditions, because that is neither your fault nor your responsibility. Ensuring that goods are as described is. I explained that to you as well, but you chose to ignore it.

As to your other points: the ENA still have not accepted the certificate of compliance for the MultiPlus II 5kVA model so, again no, they have not met their obligations if DNOs decline to accept the certificates submitted — but you know that because you said as much.

The ENA is entitled to reject a certificate of conformity when its technical experts conclude that either the test results are unsatisfactory or incomplete. As to why it fails in GB vs NI, they are different grids governed by different standards.

The UK is not the only jurisdiction to reject Victron's products. Australia and New Zealand, by all accounts, have even stricter standards and/or are too smaller markets and/or too lower margin for Victron (and likely other manufacturers) to bother. So Victron have withdrawn from the grid-tied hybrid inverter market there.

Ed: I apologise for taking such a hard tone with you but, based on your replies to others, you appear immune to more moderate approaches.

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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw strix commented ·

I have no issues with people expressing their views. Given the ongoing effort I have seen Victron has made, I have confidence all will be well sooner than later. As for all the mentioned aspects, legal or otherwise, I think nothing is as simple as, and you clearly underestimate me or my experience ;) I will leave you and this thread with this. I took a brief stab at the sad blame culture mentality, so evident in this thread. This I did on impulse, given I have actually worked closely with some participants in the community, but one stood out to me given while everybody else were moaning, blaming etc, he actually managed to secure an G99 offer from his DNO earlier this year for his 5KVA unit despite the ENA status. Time for me to go and see if I can actually make some positive contributions elsewhere.

PS - If the UK chooses not to accepts the standards as per the regulations they, should not use the G98/G99 process if you ask me!

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johnone avatar image johnone ejrossouw commented ·

For what it's worth, I would ignore the above and file under 'Victron cheer leader'. Not very helpful to people trying to solve the compliance problem - both Victron staff and frustrated/ out-of-pocket customers.

Glad this forum has been/continues to be a space for discussing the ongoing problems.

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strix avatar image strix johnone commented ·

Not a Victron cheerleader, just another who stands to be out of pocket if the 5kVA model doesn't get certified. But, like everyone else, I am reasonably confident that it will, or I would exercise the same legal remedies which the likes of ejrossouw seem content to ignore.

It is far better for everyone that all are aware of their contractual obligations than to have to fight to enforce them.


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David Molyneux avatar image David Molyneux ejrossouw commented ·

I think for a lot of people (like me), they bought a grid parallel inverter, which at the time of ordering was also shown on the ENA database to be compliant for grid connection, so it wasn't a case of jumping the gun. The compliance status was later removed and since then we've had this ongoing paperwork saga.

Thankfully, like a number of others here, mine was approved by DNO and is now installed. I feel relief for myself but also for the small business owner that sold it to be, as now they won't have to provide a refund for selling something that was not fit for purpose. The retailer has since updated the product page on their site to clearly state that the inverter is not compliant for grid connections and should only be bought for off grid use. Should cover them on new sales, in the event that Victron don't manage to gain compliance.

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flamegrilledmatt avatar image
flamegrilledmatt answered ·

Wholeheartedly disagree with some of the comments on here trying to blame the customer/installer. I applied for G99, was given the go-ahead, so purchased the 5KVA as Victron showed a valid G99 certificate on its downloads section and so it would make sense to presume it’s all OK. It’s only now when the equipment has been installed, thousands spent, that on the DNO completion sign off the issue of G99 non-compliance has raised its head and I as well as many on here have been left with a useless system. At no point have Victron ever made any of their customers aware that even though you can download a G99 certificate from their own products website (indeed this is what I submitted with the G99 at the very beginning), that this certificate is now null and void. The burden of this lies solely with Victron and it is not down to the installer or end customer to have delve into the complicated world of compliance testing. A good example would be you couldn’t go and buy a car in the UK that’s perfectly legal to use in NI, but “oh, now you’ve bought it, you can’t use it in the UK”. Whether it’s Kiwa that keep messing up or there’s other issues, this is down to Victron to resolve, something that to their customers they do not appear to be in any great hurry to do, let-alone inform said customers of any potential issues or updates.

Personally, if this is not resolved quickly I’m packing the whole lot up and will be looking to Victron for a full refund. Take that money and go and buy a far cheaer Chinese inverter that seem to have no problem with G99 certification (Solis). Makes you question whether paying the “blue premium” was actually worth it.

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strix avatar image strix commented ·

I can't give you legal advice if you should choose to return your Victron products, but I can point you in the direction of §§10–11 and §31 Consumer Rights Act 2015. Your dispute will be with your supplier rather than Victron itself, because these rights exist in relation to the contract of sale. This is unduly hard on your reseller, in my view, but that is the way the law works so far as I understand it.

Be aware that, after six months, your remedies may become limited. Take legal advice! (Which? Legal is a good option. Not free, but not expensive, either.)

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ejrossouw avatar image ejrossouw commented ·

Nothing of this was clear from your post and based on this, clearly your problem lies with your DNO process, given if the approval was indeed granted and you accepted the offer prior to the change, the final commissioning should not have been impacted. The G99 certificate was also considered valid at the time of the application in the ENA register so ... I have yet to see other cases of it being applied retrospectively to already approved and accepted offers as you suggest. A manufacturer cannot be blamed for something the local DNO elected to change and seem to be in breach of their original contract with you. I am sure you will miss you Victron, but then again, patience is a virtue few has. PS - I'd strongly suggest to have a conversation with your DNO on the topic.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain ejrossouw commented ·
I'd echo what @ejrossouw just said - make sure you talk directly on the phone to your DNO representative because in my experience and that of others, communicating by email is a waste of time. Might be different with your own DNO but with SPEN, this was my experience. In fact I'm just about to pick up the phone to ask where my commissioning confirmation has got to. Fingers crossed there have not been any last minute issues.
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flamegrilledmatt avatar image
flamegrilledmatt answered ·

Update.... So I'd given up on Victron sorting this mess out so before packing it all up and sending it back, I thought I'd chance my arm and just submit the current G99 certificate on the ENA website alongwith line diagram, site plan, EIC etc. Within minutes of uploading and submitting, UKPN just emailed back saying "they've updated their records confirming that this generator is now commissioned and running in parallel with our electricity network". I'm taking that as approved and signed off, finally! Unless I hear anything from them in the next week, I think that's it, good to go!

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daza avatar image daza commented ·
I'm interested how you went by this? As on their portal it asks for any G100 export scheme limitation did you just answer this as no their is none. or that the combined sight is limited to something like 4kW export but does this then not require you to complete G100 app if you say yes?
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flamegrilledmatt avatar image flamegrilledmatt daza commented ·
I detailed in the comments section that there would be no or limited export and that this is monitored by the ET112 meter. I answered "no" to the G100 export miting scheme on premises and they agreed an export capacity of 4.4kW (what the 5000 can do if you wanted it to). Hope that helps!
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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain flamegrilledmatt commented ·
This is very similar to my own outcome albeit I had to submit a formal application and wait a number of weeks before getting my connection offer then paying £300 to SPEN as a "design fee" and then finally submitting my commissioning paperwork. They made no G100 export limitation demands and just put 4.4kW as my overall export limit which is the max my MP2 5kVA can do.


I've not had confirmation of my commissioning yet and in fact phoned them up today to ask for an update. I was just told they are completely swamped and that I should hear back soon. I was told that everything seems to be in order so far. The lady I spoke to was very friendly and helpful and had just returned from 7 days leave to find things very chaotic. She really did seem overwhelmed and was laughing in that "if I don't laugh I might cry" sort of way. I certainly didn't give her a hard time although I do intend to follow up in due course once everything is completed to ask them to justify the £300 design fee which to me seems unnecessary since no network strengthening was required.


So anyway, for anyone out there who has already bought their Multiplus-II 5kVA - just get a G99 application submitted regardless of ENA status and see what happens. I still expect compliance to be achieved soon but even if it isn't, your DNO can approve the installation without compliance.

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David Molyneux avatar image David Molyneux Craig Chamberlain commented ·

The fee is excessive just to rubber stamp paperwork, although yours seems cheap considering Northern Powergrid charged £360+VAT to me for the same!

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daza avatar image daza David Molyneux commented ·
Who would think saving the planet helping the grid was soo expensive
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7hvn avatar image 7hvn David Molyneux commented ·
Did you apply recently @David Molyneux? I need to apply to NPG too. I was holding off until the type approval was sorted though. Thanks
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strix avatar image strix commented ·

I did something similar to you, but with a slightly different outcome and I'm interested in what procedure you followed and whether you experienced anything similar.

I was advised by my contact at UKPN that the procedure had changed, and that I should give this new SmartConnect portal a try. Although it knew about the MP2 5kVA product, what its nameplate capacity was and also that it wasn't yet confirmed on the ENA TTR, it also wanted a G98 declaration and certificate of compliance "for a device < 3.68kW"... even though its nameplate capacity is 4.4kW.

So I submitted the paperwork the old fashioned way by email — including G99 test certificate — and just got back a G98 approval, just as I would have had I proceeded on my own. It appears that someone at UKPN submitted and approved the application on my behalf with exactly the same problem.

Either they didn't notice, or they don't care. What was your experience? Does your approval look similar, or indicate that your PGM is a G99-compliant device? Here's the relevant excerpt from what I got back:

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That doesn't look right to me.

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daza avatar image daza strix commented ·

@strix I’m with UKPN too I have got to the smart portal, I just need to take a pic of the cutout. So what do you recommend email or smart portal which I’ve nearly completed. but is the G98 not 3.68kW are you able to give me some help regarding this? Was there a fee? This is what mine says and is for G99 cert and all the declarations are for you to agree with G99 cert the portal way does seem easier but only when the device is approved otherwise it goes red non compliance and you have to fill out testing formsf006f904-7fcd-4672-9332-ce70ad3926af.jpeg

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strix avatar image strix daza commented ·

There was no fee, but I don't think I'm in a position to advise (yet) given that this new procedure doesn't appear to be producing sensible results.

I've applied for and received a G99 permit under the old procedure in the past without trouble (albeit for a different inverter). That was a straight forward matter of completing Form G99 A1-1, attaching the G99 certificate and the SLD, emailing and waiting. I got back a letter in the post with the formal connection offer, and that was that.

This time is different in several ways. Most obviously, no valid ENA TTR compliance record and a genericised portal that doesn't seem particularly refined for the purpose. For example, it is sensible to ask what the export capacity would be in a conventional PV inverter. It is sensible to ask what the import capacity would be for an EV charger. I can see why they'd want a photo of the cutout and whether the tails have been upgraded to 25mm² for one of those.

I also included in my emailed application details of the G100 certificate and declaration from Victron. They ignored that and marked it has having no G100 export limiter, and (as you can see from above) marked it as having a 4.4kW import capacity.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that UKPN know the portal is a bit limited and have filled it out as nearest as makes sense for their purposes. However, the indication that the application is for a G99 device bothers me.

I'll get back to you when I next hear from UKPN.

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daza avatar image daza strix commented ·
@strix they ask for the solar PV export in existing devices, I’ll take a pic of the cutout my tails are already 25mm, it’s the teo forms they want you to complete when it says non compliant G99 device that but has my head spinning, yes I too put no G100 limit as device is only max 4.4kW
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strix avatar image strix daza commented ·
There is a document from Victron somewhere that certifies G100 compliance when the ET112 energy monitor is used, but UKPN don't seem to care in this instance. Which is odd because 4.4kW exceeds the 16 amp phase imbalance limit. If you have three phase, exporting 4.4kW would be fine provided you maintain the necessary phase balance, but that's a very different kettle of fish.


I didn't see any forms to complete regarding compliance other than G98 Form C, which presumably should be the G99 certificate provided by the independent test lab (Kiwa). I'm about to write to them to seek clarification about that.

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daza avatar image daza strix commented ·

In the portal they do ask if you have an export limiting device, the Victron can only export 4.4kW so is in the permitted kW of the G99 the 16Amps is for the G98 anything more requires the G99 only if it exceeds the kW of G99 then the G100 is required. I’ll post a screenshot of what they ask me for on the portal92f0f2a1-8e41-4c68-9044-8040ea27bc48.jpeg

@Strix are you able to message me as I think you may have done it a straigh forward way and I would like to complete it that way if you have details?

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strix avatar image strix daza commented ·

4.4kW is 19A @ 230V which, in a single-phase installation, exceeds the 16A per phase imbalance requirement. This applies to G99 PGMs as well and is a distinct requirement from the applicability of EREC G99 based on aggregate nameplate power. Whether demonstrated G100 ELS compliance is required is at the discretion of the DNO.

I don't know how you got G99 prompts, because neither at the time I tried to begin a project in the portal — nor, interestingly, when UKPN did the same — was G99 offered as an option. I haven't seen the prompts you screenshotted. Instead, I get something similar to the second screen shot, but for G98.

I have emailed UKPN to see what they have to say about it. Until then, I'm reluctant to give you any further advice because I don't at all trust what I've done and I don't want to lead you astray!

I'll get back to you when UKPN reply.

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daza avatar image daza strix commented ·

lol fair enough yeah as far as I'm aware G98 for unto 16Amps anything higher is G99 unless it exceeds the permitted kW in G99. I looked at the certs page and victron don't test G100. Do you have an existing PV install? I do and ive listed it which is only 3.20kW so G98 was given. See below guidance on app, would be interesting to see if you get the prompts now, you wouldn't need to register the build you could start this as a new project to see what you get but more than likely it will generate the prompt for a non compliant G99 device.

Generation from 3.68kW to 50kW: G99 - A1.1 Application Form

You can use our Smart Connect Portal to process your G99 A1.1 applications. If you use the portal and your Installation is between 3.68kW and 5KW you will get an instant approval. For works from 5KW to 50kW the Portal will raise the project automatically and pass it to our design teams for assessment. If you are unable to use the online portal, you can find out more on the Energy Networks Association's (ENA's) website.

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daza avatar image
daza answered ·

Thanks @flamegrilledmatt funny enough i did that as everything will go through the victron so its hardware limited to 4.4kW. @craigc the only problem they require you to complete two amendments to the G99 if not approved these seem weary and i would rather not do these congrats at getting yours done but £300 to tell you its ok is steep!

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Hi @Daza not sure what you mean about "complete two amendments to the G99" - can you clarify this? Do you mean the two firmware updates on the Multiplus? I did these myself which updated the grid code for the UK and it was easy enough.
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daza avatar image
daza answered ·

@craigc your DNO might of not had it I mean this below, I’m taking it that when it gets approved fingers crossed this goes

Your proposed Generation Equipment is not shown as fully type tested in the Energy Networks Association (ENA) Type Test Register. To help process your application, please provide us with the manufacturer’s type test verification report to confirm that your Generation Equipment has been tested and meets the requirements set out in Engineering Recommendation (EREC) G99. The relevant form (G99 Form A2.3/Form A2.4) can be downloaded from the ENA Resource Libraryand should be completed by the manufacturer.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Thanks @Daza fortunately my DNO didn't make any such stipulations. I supplied the latest (circa early December) G99 type test certificate along with my application and they were happy to accept it.

What they did reject initially was the certificate that had been explicitly marked as "non-compliant for new installations" back in September but they were happy to accept the ones marked as "awaiting further information". At that time they told me I would need a witness test during commissioning as well but this was also dropped with my later application.

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vbloke avatar image
vbloke answered ·

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we are now in a good place!screenshot-2023-03-31-at-222626.png


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dancrompton avatar image dancrompton commented ·
Boom! About time.
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bm97ppc avatar image
bm97ppc answered ·

Is it too much to ask for the 10KVA to join the list anytime soon....

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daza avatar image
daza answered ·

Can you imagine 1200 o’clock today ENA say it’s an April Fool lol

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1234enough avatar image
1234enough answered ·

About time, DNO application here I come

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