Suddenly I got error #11

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question

marekp asked Aug 15, '21

Suddenly I got error #11

Suddenly I got an error #11 in the system that has been running for weeks without a problem.

It is 3 phase system with 2 MP-2s per phase.

Phase 1 has EasySolar-2 as a master and MP-2 as a slave.

Remote console shows the following:

Maybe someone will help me pinpoint the location of the fault?

What it is a "PE2 closed error"

What it is "Phase L1 device 1 (0)"

What it is "Phase L2 device 1 (1)"

What it is "Phase L1 device 2 (3)"

I thought that "GND Relay Error" has a number 8 but system reports only error #11.

Going by the suggested "Steps"

Step 1: Make sure that the units have been updated to the latest firmware version.

- Inverters FW is 481, GX FW is 2.72

Step 2: Verify that system is properly wired to your installation and your local codes.

- system worked for weeks. Last week one inverter was replaced but there were no errors after replacing.

Step 3: Disconnect the L and N wiring from the ACout terminals.

- breaker at the AC-out disconnects all loads and with loads disconnected there is still error #11.

Step 4: Check your Neutral-out connection. In most cases there should be no external connection between ACin-Neutral to ACout-Neutral, or to Earth.

- There is no connection between AC-in and AC-out neutral wires.

Step 5: Neutral and line input might be inverted. Check the input connections, swap them if needed and retry. In this case, “Failing step: 8” will show.

- it is a working system. Wires would not swap places by themselves.

Disconnecting AC-in makes the error #11 not happen and system is properly working in inverter mode.

What went wrong?

Best Regards,

Marek

Multiplus-II error

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Modifications Space

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Answer 1 · 2021-08-15T07:47:35Z

markus answered · Aug 15, 2021 at 07:47 AM

Hi Marek,

My guess is that PE and Neutral have a sporadic connection somewhere inside your installation.
If I remember right this is not the first time happening. This happened months ago too, where we talked why this can happen.

I would suggest to repeat Step 3 and not just switch off the breaker, but disconnect L and N from your house installation but leave the Multis N connected together.

If the system is working again while disconnected from your house installation, you might be on the right track.

Best Regards

25

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marekp commented · Aug 15, 2021 at 11:38 AM

Hi @Markus

Thank you for your input.

Months ago I had a neutrals of AC-in and AC-out connected to the same place.

I will repeat Step 3 (will include neutral disconnection) but the breaker I am talking about is disconnecting the system from the house. Only neutral AC-out stays connected.

I am more worried about the fact that more than one MP-II is listed in the error list.

How can I pinpoint which one and why so many.

Maybe you can decipher what those mean.

"Phase L1 device 1 (0)" ?

"Phase L2 device 1 (1)" ?

"Phase L1 device 2 (3)" ??

Also how to interpret this:

"PE2 closed error"

Today I checked all the connections and did not find any loose ones.

Best Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 15, 2021 at 11:47 AM

Hi Marek,

„Only neutral AC-out stays connected.“

Exactly this can cause the ground relay test to fail in case there is a PE-N connection after the Multis.

„I am more worried about the fact that more than one MP-II is listed in the error list.“

Don’t worry too much on things. Focus on concrete steps to diagnose. Like the one I suggested.
If the system brings the Error again after disconnecting your house, we can discuss further.
BR

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM

Hi @Markus

Ok, I did as you suggested.

Neutral and Line of AC-out was disconnected.

System did not produce this Error 11.

I connected N and L back in, and again no Error 11.

Than I remembered that yesterday moved Fronius from AC-out to AC-in to get the PV production when Victron is off.

Tomorrow I will move Fronius back to AC-out position and see what happens.

Best Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 16, 2021 at 01:32 PM

Hi Marek,

This are good news.
PE2closed means the ground relay test believes the ground relay is stuck or welded closed.

If the system works without Error11 while your house installation is completely disconnected, the ground relay is most probably not stuck.
A sporadic PE-N connection after the Multi may also lead to PE2closed error.

The bad news are, these kind of errors inside an existing installation are usually not really easy to find. Especially if the error only occurs sporadically.

But in two cases where I had this kind of issue, it turned out, that the stove was faulty. So maybe check that first.
BR

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 16, 2021 at 10:08 PM

Hi @Markus

When this error 11 happened nobody was home and when we came back the freezers were almost on plus side. :(

So stove was not on. Almost nothing was on.

Why not go into "pass through" or just disconnect grid and work of of the battery and PV since inverting mode works even after error 11?

My main suspect is Fronius, because error 11 vanished after I moved it to AC-side. Will test it tomorrow when the whole house will be connected back on and Fronius still on the AC-in side. Unfortunately I cannot now leave it on when we are not home, and I have to work outside for coming days.

My confidence in this system is now lower because I cannot count on it to supply my house with continuous energy.

Best Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 06:11 AM

Your confidence is now lower because a safety mechanism engaged?

If you have earthing issues, you should loose confidence in your electric installation instead.

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 06:45 AM

Hi @Markus

My confidence is lower because the earthing issues should be taken care of by RCD that controls the whole house. My RCD did not trip. I tested this RCD and is working properly.

My question is, why the system did not go to inverting instead of turning the whole system off and killing power to the house.?

When I turned the grid off system (after restart) was happily working in inverting mode without error 11.

When I look at this:

I do not see that the system "knows" where the fault is.

You can see on my VRM the moment it happened.

It is strange that it happened exactly at 10AM.

Best Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 07:30 AM

Hi Marek,

" because the earthing issues should be taken care of by RCD"

A RCD relies on a good PE system to work. It can not take care of PE issues. If you would cut your PE wire completely, your RCD would be happy with that, and maybe never trigger again in future.

You might be talking about, that the RCD should most propably trip when PE and N has a connection somewhere inside your installation. This can be the case, but it is not a must.

"I tested this RCD and is working properly"

You have most probably tested, if the RCD trips at rated fault current. This doesn't neccessarily mean your RCD works ok inside your installation. You will need a special installation measurent tool, to test if your RCD works properly inside your installation. To operate such a tool, you might need to be trained.

"My question is, why the system did not go to inverting instead of turning the whole system off and killing power to the house.?"

This is because of safety enforced by the grid code you set your system to. In the grid rules it will be a requirement to test the Ground relay on a regular basis. If problems are detected there, the system must shut down.

There are grid codes that doesn't enforce this Ground Relay tests. E.G.: Other: AC Neutral Path externally joined (not compliant)

I hope you are aware of, that these Grid Code settings do not exist to overcome a faulty PE.

"When I turned the grid off system (after restart) was happily working in inverting mode without error 11."

In inverting mode the Ground Relay will be closed from the beginning, and in my understanding therefore it is not possible to test if it's stuck closed.

My recommendation: I would involve a professional electrician here. Your PE system has the reason to save your live, in case of an electric fault. If there are PE issues you are not 100% sure how to fix, don't do it by yourself.

BR

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markus ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 07:40 AM

PS:

"I do not see that the system "knows" where the fault is."

Yes. It doesn't. It only knows, there is a problem with your PE.

It is enough for the system to stop operating, but it can't search for errors inside your installation. That's the job of some electrician. ;o)

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 08:21 AM

Hi @Markus

I have to go now to work, but quick question I keep asking and no answer.

If there is a problem with PE on my house side, why system is working when grid is off? This situation does not mean that now I have off-grid system. It is the same system configuration only grid is off.

When I turn off the grid, and turn the system on, there is no error 11 and house has power from battery.

Best Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 08:29 AM

Well, I did answer this.

I copy and paste the important passages here again for your reference:

"This is because of safety enforced by the grid code you have set your system to. In the grid rules it will be a requirement to test the Ground relay on a regular basis. If problems are detected there, the system must shut down."

"In inverting mode the Ground Relay will be closed from the beginning, and in my understanding therefore it is not possible to test if it's stuck closed."

When you are not connected to the grid, the system is in inverting mode with the Ground Relay closed. It has to stay closed as long as the inverter is inverting.

Do you know of any method to test if a closed relay is stuck closed?

When the grid connects, the Ground Relay will be opened. Then the test will be possible.

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markus ♦♦ markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 17, 2021 at 08:33 AM

Your system did run for weeks without issues you said, with no changes to the installation.

This sounds like a sporadic or not fully shorted PE-N connection after the Multis.

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 18, 2021 at 12:36 AM

Hi @Markus

"This is because of safety enforced by the grid code you have set your system to. In the grid rules it will be a requirement to test the Ground relay on a regular basis. If problems are detected there, the system must shut down."

But ground relay fault triggers Error #8 not #11.

I was greeted, couple day ego, with Error #11..

Do you know of any method to test if a closed relay is stuck closed?

Yes, open and close that ground relay at the beginning of the inverting mode.

A here we are back to my problem with Victron.

If closed ground relay makes inverting save, than why Victron kills the power to the house if condition is safe.

Of course only if my recent error is caused by ground relay and not the back feed relay. But faulty ground relay triggers error#8 and I got error#11 which is caused by back feed relay.

So which one caused my error?

Best Regards,

Marek

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 20, 2021 at 10:25 AM

Hi @Markus

My recommendation: I would involve a professional electrician here. Your PE system has the reason to save your live, in case of an electric fault. If there are PE issues you are not 100% sure how to fix, don't do it by yourself.

I had a licensed electrician involved from the start.

Myself.

I hope Industrial electrician license is good enough for this job.

You will need a special installation measurent tool, to test if your RCD works properly inside your installation. To operate such a tool, you might need to be trained.

There is nothing complicated in testing RCD.

It would be good to know how MultiPlus-II performs this measuring process before deciding on turning the system off for Error#11.

Is there some "White Paper" about this available?

Regards,

Marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 20, 2021 at 10:37 AM

I don't know, if that card stands for knowledge in house electrics regarding PE issues.

What I do know is, that this sentence says NO:

"the earthing issues should be taken care of by RCD that controls the whole house."

BR

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marekp markus ♦♦ commented · Aug 20, 2021 at 10:56 AM

Hi @Markus

Can you please be more specific?

Why RCD cannot be relied on in for assuring safety of the house in regards to PE to N shorts?

My guess is that PE and Neutral have a sporadic connection somewhere inside your installation.

This was what you suspected in the beginning.

But I tested my RCD, and it tripped when PE and N was shorted.

After this test, MP-II was still showing E#!11.

Regards,

marek

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markus ♦♦ marekp commented · Aug 20, 2021 at 11:10 AM

Think about a not fully shorted PE-N.

You know what these are for?: Fluke 1654B-02 | Fluke 1654B LCD Installationstester, CAT III, CAT IV 300 V, 500 V, 3-Draht | RS Components (rs-online.com)

Can you be more specific why "But I tested my RCD, and it tripped when PE and N was shorted." is a reliable RCD test?

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Answer 2 · 2021-09-01T08:47:30Z

marekp answered · Sep 01, 2021 at 08:47 AM

To all that follow this topic.

Victron service decided to replace my L2 master Multiplus-II because they suspect it has back-feed relay problem (sticky).

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Answer 3 · 2021-12-10T15:29:56Z

marekp answered · Dec 10, 2021 at 03:29 PM

Update and question.

Since that Error #11 back in August, system is working OK.

Master MP-II on L2, that Victron decided to replace, is still waiting to be replaced.

Replacement process is stuck somewhere.

For the last 4 months did not get any errors #11, but I do not know if this is because the relay is OK or it was not tested, since system was always up and connected to the grid.

During those 4 months system switched to inverting and back over 25 times.

Can someone tell me, how often the back-feed AC-in relay is tested?

Regards to all,

Marek

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Answer 4 · 2022-12-31T15:53:59Z

georgebester answered · Dec 31, 2022 at 03:53 PM

Will this help to test this problem

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Answer 5 · 2022-12-31T16:32:04Z

Hi Marek ,been chasing my tail with this error 11 too.

see here

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/30559/grid-code-selection-south-africa.html?childToView=177559#comment-177559

Here are some of the clues I have come across so far

There are no switches on my Multiplus 2 as set out in one of the solutions to indicate open or closed

How the test is conducted :

Here are some work around that did not work for me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCbk8ntxyZg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXBqwDZqi80

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU4x5CqiJdw

If everyone who has this problem asks for a new Multiplus perhaps we can get to the bottom of this enormous waste of time

I know when i remove the ess assistant and grid code for South Africa the error goes away.

Some say that multiplus are not anti islanded however this is not true however

"The Multigrid is a specific variant of the Multiplus that has the anti-islanding built in
A MultiPlus, plus ESS (Energy Storage System) functionality- The MultiPlus-II is a multifunctional inverter/charger with all the features of the MultiPlus, plus an external current sensor option which extends the PowerControl and PowerAssist function to 50A resp. 100A. The MultiPlus-II is ideally suited for professional marine, yachting, vehicle and land based off-grid applications. It also has built-in anti-islanding functionality, and an increasingly long list of country approvals for ESS application. Several system configurations are possible. For more detailed information see the ESS Design and configuration manual.
Note according to victron brochure :" for a short period of time this product was called MultiGrid-II."

Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 product id 2623 running firmware 500 , serial no HQ1918U9F4l which according to spec sheet is compliant with grounding requirements .

I keep getting ve bus error 8/11 reports phase l1 device 1 (0) #79 0x800805 errors

been through all the steps below

Steps to take: Step 1: Make sure that the units have been updated to the latest ﬁrmware version. There have been various VE.Bus error 11 related improvements in the ﬁrmware. This may correct the error, and if it does not, it will provide additional information to assist troubleshooting.

Updated to v500

Step 2: Verify that system is properly wired to your installation and your local codes. Remember to check the earth connection on the unit AC input. Earth should be grounded according to your local grid rules. Do not connect Earth to Neutral in the unit itself.

neutral not connected to earth in unit only at service input

Step 3: Disconnect the L and N wiring from the ACout terminals on each inverter/charger. Which, in case of a parallel or three phase system, isolates the ACout connections for each unit. If the system then starts normally there might be a problem with a connected load (e.g. a leakage between load, neutral and ground).

done that no difference still error 11

Step 4: Check your Neutral-out connection. In most cases there should be no external connection between ACin-Neutral to ACout-Neutral, or to Earth

                  
                   no continuity detected

Step 5: Neutral and line input might be inverted. Check the input connections, swap them if needed and retry. In this case, “Failing step: 8” will show.

I see step 8 in error code but Step 5 mitigation above had no effect

Swapped the N and L no difference still error 11

I cant get info on why I don't have a switch but a green connector block with GRD Relay slot . Is this the same as the switch ad should it be shorted

I see some installs that have a chassis ground to Neutral bar see below but this must be for a vehicle and not a grid tied connection using ess

Must be faulty relay on Multiplus - ie warranty claim

I think that the Multiplus needs replacing as it looks like the relay.

Answer 6 · 2022-12-31T16:32:47Z

marekp answered · Dec 31, 2022 at 04:32 PM

To all that follow this discussion.

During the 2022, I was investigating this problem and after many tests and different configurations, I am 99.99% certain that the L3 slave MP-II was the culprit. This unit was getting progressively bad and at the end it would turn off by itself at random moments causing all kind of errors many times during one week.

After replacing it on 10.08.2022 after getting errror #3 again, I did not get any errors since.

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