Overload error with shutdown - Is there a firmware update ?

Question

question

gmd asked Sep 4, '20

Overload error with shutdown - Is there a firmware update ?

Hi there,

I read a lot about erratic overload alarms from multis. I have a caravan installation which was completed (except solar) 4 years ago, while I am still working on some finishing touches.

The installation (details below) has very light use and mostly plugged in, while I am working on the van. Everything is stationary. I had no trouble until now. A couple of weeks ago I had the first overload situation and today again. However there is no overload. The Ac wiring is fine and nothing has changed since the initial installation, everything is protected with double pole circuit brakers. The overload shuts down the system and I cannot restart by switching off/on unless I remove the 12V from the Multies (Ihave contactors for that) and reconnect the 12V. Then the multies are ok again, but I wonder for how long.

Is there a firmware update for this problem. It looks like many people have that issue from what I read.

Here are some details.

2 x Multi 3000 12V 16A in tandem connected with 2x70sqmm cables for plus and minus all cables around 80cm long.

Output is connected with 6sqmm mains cable from each multi to a 32Amp circuit braker and then combined into a 63Amp circuit braker which connects to the main switchboard. I can easily disconnect all AC loads as well as 12V input.

2 x Blue Solar 85/150 running idle, no panels connected yet, will be shortly 20x135W in 4strings of 5, 2 to each solar charger in parallel.

CCGX installed with BMV 702 for the main battery bank.

Batteries are 2 banks of 12V 700aH Lithiums connected via a copper bus from which the multies are fed. The BMV702 uses a 1000Amp shunt.

I have tested the system well beyond the 6KW of the multies while plugged in and it worked flawlessly. I have a hotplate, dual head aircon, inverter fridge, microwave and more connected for test.

I know that the system works and am wondering now if I have to prepare for a major repair. My supplier is out of business and I guess I am out of warranty as well.

To me it looks like a manufacturing issue with all these posts about the problem.

Any ideas ?

regards

Gmd

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Charger

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2020-09-04T08:04:56Z

gmd answered · Sep 04, 2020 at 08:04 AM

I should add one thing, Some months back I changed the position of the brakers for the multies. The output AC cables to the combination point are not 100% equal length. They are around 9m long with one around 70cm shorter than the other. I remember that I read somewhere that all cables have to have same length. I have not used much AC since I made the change, however I used the heating and today the aircon. Could that be the issue ? This is the only thing I can think of.

Regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 2 · 2020-09-04T09:23:34Z

ewalderasmus answered · Sep 04, 2020 at 09:23 AM

Hi @gmd

I had a similar issue with my quattro, the only advice I was told is to make sure I have the latest firmware version.

What firmware version are you running? You can check if there is an update at:

https://professional.victronenergy.com/accounts/login/?next=/

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 3 · 2020-09-04T10:18:14Z

gmd answered · Sep 04, 2020 at 10:18 AM

Thanks Ewald,

I have not the latest firmware, but read the manual again. It states that the AC cables should be of same length for both multies not only the DC. So I will first make sure that this is the case ... I will make the AC cables equal length and take the brakers closer to the inverters.
Then I update the firmware... It makes sense to me that almost 10% in cable length difference must have some reflection effect on the output circuitry. It is kind of logical once I think about it.
Maybe a victron technician can add his 2c. This is the only difference in my installation and the components are still pristine, no dust, dirt, moisture etc.

Obviously others had their units replaced with these errors. I will make the cables to specs and then I will see.

regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 4 · 2020-09-06T08:50:53Z

gmd answered · Sep 06, 2020 at 08:50 AM

Update:

Have moved the breaker again close to the multies... Each AC out is 80cm to the connect point.
Problem persists, now the multi goes to overload straight away.

I will now update the firmware of my CCGX and multies and reconfigure as independent, not parallel, and run each multi by itself for test, while the other is switched off. Will see if both do the same thing or if it is just one or the parallel connection.

My CCGX is 1.74 so I have to do a manual upgrade and have to install all the software again on my new PC. Have not yet figured out how to see a device locally through connect, however it works through the portal. All the different software components can be a bit confusing again, since I have not used them in 4 years. Have not yet figured out if I have to use Flash for my older Multies or can use Connect. I assume I have to use Flash.

That's it for now... very frustrating .. by the way, all breakers are off, no load on the multies when they go to overload. Breakers are double pole, so complete isolation.

regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 5 · 2020-09-06T11:05:34Z

trip-tracks answered · Sep 06, 2020 at 11:05 AM

Hi Gmd,

I noticed you said the inverters are now tripping off with no load? Is this correct?

Do they run with the AC breakers off?

Have you (re)read the Victron info on parallel systems? Might be a good idea to revise what you did 4 years ago?

This doc also states why different AC cable lengths are an issue, especially larger cables.
https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:manual_parallel_and_three_phase_systems

Also, have you configured using VE Configuration tools?

https://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/software#ve-configuration-tools-for-ve-bus-products

VE Flash will allow you to update the firmware, or you can now do it via Victron Connect using a MK3-USB interface via Windows PC.

You also said you have 2 x 700AH battery banks. I assume they are interconnected via the copper busbar you stated? Both Multis must be on the same battery bank.

I would try running individually first to prove the Multis are OK before paralleling. I'm not sure if you have tried this?

In hindsight, you would have been better with a 24V or even better a 48V system. We are now running 48V with a Multiplus II - only draws 100A on full load. The 48V gear is a lot less expensive too. On top of that, the solar regulators are also 1/4 of the size of a 12V system, and all the cabling 1/4 gauge, so it all comes out much lighter and smaller equipment.

Good luck finishing your build. (Thought you would have been finished by now, but obviously work has got in your way)

Regards
David

2

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

gmd commented · Sep 06, 2020 at 03:18 PM

David,

you may recall that I had my reasons to go 12V, several. The cable size is not an issue really since the battery to Multiplus connections are only around one meter. So 8 cables of 70sqmm 1 meter long is not really a big deal considering the total length of various cables in my van. The solar strings run at 96V/120V 6Amp depending on yield, which also is not a huge cable and the connection to the shunt and power bus is less than 60cm.

The installation worked perfectly up to a couple of weeks ago. Also see my update.

Now the Multis go to overload with nothing connected.

The minus of both batteries are on the 1000A shunt, the battery cables were always connected when linked. Communication is fine, I have used Configure to check the settings through the PC, have stored my configuration to reload when flashed or tested individually.

Tomorrow I will split the parallel installation and test each Multi individually as mentioned in my update. I am aware of the communication and wiring, however I made that mistake of unequal AC output cables when relocating the breakers, however this is rectified now and other references in the Victron documentation speak of similar length not identical length, so I tend to conclude that this was not the issue.

I will use Flash since I only have a MK2 and do not intend to buy a MK3 for now.

Was busy with my commercial projects but have finally got back to finish the van full time with the target of getting away in November. It is mostly the electronics of my network to be commissioned. Components are done, just testing and commissioning the electronics, the plumbing (tanks, pumps, heating, solar hot water panels) and finalising the software for the central computer system. It all worked well until in ran into that Victron issue.

One more thing I have to finish are the solar mounts. I can lift and angle my panels doubling as a tropical roof. The design is done, I have to make it now and install it.

Below I added the alarm log from the portal. There are a few more entries dating back to 2016, pretty much the same.

The alarms are triggered from switching off the banks (low voltage) and switching off the multies individually using the main switch at the unit when making adjustments.
The overload does not even show ? Shouldn't it log also ?

The log today ended when I switched off both units and kept them off for now. I have loaded the new CCGX image on an SD card and will update that as well tomorrow. Then the log should continue when I test each multi.

Also I have not mentioned: The AC input is off, nothing connected. I will not connect AC input to the multies until this is sorted. I have a change over switch for the AC and the multies have individual double pole breakers in the AC supply line and are completely isolated.

Thanks for your input, will see how far I get tomorrow.

regards

Gmd

0 ·

alarms.jpg (281.9 KiB)

trip-tracks gmd commented · Sep 07, 2020 at 06:32 AM

Hi Gmd,

I know you are a thorough person but just thought I would run thru the list of things I would check just in case you had forgotten - it has been 4 years afterall ;)

The alarms will only show in the log if enabled on the GX device.
Device List -> Multiplus -> Alarm setup -> Inverter Overload -> select disabled/alarms only/alarms and warnings. I set to alarms only otherwise you get nuisance alarms when you just go over, but it might be an ideas to turn this on until you resolve your issue.

Yes, 12V choice I understand and I always chose that method in vans now, but have come around ;) Decision has been made and you have the gear, so all good. There is no reason why it should not work, and as you say, it was working.

I'd be interested to hear how you go using the multis one at a time. Keep the output isolated and the inputs unconnected and should be easy to identify if it is a hardware issue, especially with two.

I would suggest switching the multis off before switching the 12V input.

What are the high battery voltage alarms?

PS I dropped you an email a couple of weeks back as I hadn't heard from you for a while. Feel free to give me a ring if you want to bounce ideas.

0 ·

Answer 6 · 2020-09-07T06:27:16Z

n-dee answered · Sep 07, 2020 at 06:27 AM

My AC cables have approx 10m and up to 80cm difference. No Problems here...
I assume that AC cabeling is not as sensitive as DC cabeling.

regards,

Andy

1

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

gmd commented · Sep 07, 2020 at 07:49 AM

Thanks for your comment.

regards

Gmd

0 ·

Answer 7 · 2020-09-07T08:05:44Z

gmd answered · Sep 07, 2020 at 08:05 AM

Update:

Today I done the following:

1. Update my CCGX from 1.74 to Version 2 and then to 2.58
(This took 4 hours and 5 minutes -
1 hour to give up on my old 4GB microSD with an ancient reader to format on my PC and 2 laptops - no idea why it made trouble.
3 Hours to go and buy a new reader and 3 16GB microSD cards (needed some for my 4D Display anyway) - waiting in line at my local computer shop and a coffee break.
5 minutes to do the update ... a bit too much info I know but good for a chuckle.

2. Used Flash to update firmware of the Multis (product id 2609) to the latest 476 from 408.

3. Tested the INVERT of both Multis with a small load

4. Tested both Multis with AC In and CHARGER ON.

The above went without any issues so far. I guess this is good news, right ?

I will run each Multi for a couple of days with my "normal" load while I work on the van. Normal is a bit of floor heating in the morning and maybe a bit of aircon in the afternoon. Audio system, Laptop power supply and Monitor connected. This usually maxes out at 2000Watt when the batteries are fully charged, which is a good load for one Multi to handle.

Will see what happens. When this is all working without issues (fingers crossed) I will reload my parallel configuration with CONFIGURE.

Last time I had the error it also took a few days to reappear until yesterday when it was kind of permanent. But when I know that the Multis are ok individually it gives me a better base to diagnose the problem.

Thanks for the posts so far. I will update this because I hate nothing more than problem threads without a solution at the end, good or bad.

regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 8 · 2020-09-09T08:46:09Z

gmd answered · Sep 09, 2020 at 08:46 AM

Update: After testing the Multis individually I now combined them again and loaded my original configuration. All good so far, fingers crossed.

However I realised that the CCGX does not display AC loads below 50 Watt. I have 0.2A output current from the Multi(running audio system, and a couple of small things) but the CCGX shows 0 AC Load.

When I run the AC and the switch it of and watch the AC Load decrease, somewhere below 60 Watts the display jumps to 0.

Any idea why ?

regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Answer 9 · 2020-09-10T07:47:01Z

gmd answered · Sep 10, 2020 at 07:47 AM

Update: Still working today. Have seen AC loads below 50W when the Grid Input is low , nut sure exactly what the threshold is. When the input was 80W I have seen 34W output, which was 0 when the input was over 1K. Looks like a software thing.

So far so good. Parallel configuration running again, not yet tested with loads over 1500W.

regards

Gmd

2 |3000

Attachments: Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

question