Attention Freedom Won installers – Feedback needed

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Jonathan asked Oct 15, '22

Attention Freedom Won installers – Feedback needed

Hi all Freedom Won installers,

I am looking for some feedback from the community regarding some frequent problems that I have been experiencing with Freedom Won batteries – both with the Lite and eTower range.

This year, I seem to be logging several Support Tickets a month with Freedom Won compared to having no problems at all when I first started installing their batteries 7 years ago. In almost every case, they want me to go back to site so they can log in, do a firmware upgrade and change some settings. Even after they have done this, the main issues continue to be unresolved.

Freedom Won also seem reluctant to verify exactly what the issues are. They have full access to my sites on VRM and all my config files, and the installation setup has been done as per the Installation Manual.

A summary of the problems that I am frequently seeing with Freedom Won batteries are as follows:

1) *SEVERE* SOC Drift on eTower and Lite batteries. I have started to see a few other posts here with the same issues. The Battery SOC will jump from a constant charging of 70% or 80%, right up to a full 100% within seconds. Similarly, I have seen a battery that is being gradually depleted suddenly drop down to a hard 0% SOC, and the entire system shuts down and goes to sleep.

2) eTower batteries going to sleep after being depleted during a long power outage, but not waking up when grid returns in the evening. The batteries only wake up when there is solar power on the DC bus.

3) Firmware incompatibility for Lite batteries. I installed a second Lite battery in parallel after the first battery was installed less than 2 months prior, and the batteries would not charge or discharge in parallel. Freedom Won had to dial in, and reflash and change settings on both Battery Units.

4) Frequent Low Voltage errors, causing the inverter to shut down as soon as there is a power outage, even with the battery SOC being way above 50%. Additionally, the loads at the time of the power outage were under 1 kW. Regarding this error, I have been since been informed that the Low Voltage Pre-Alarm of 51.5 VDC can be lowered to 50.0 VDC to resolve this, even when 51.5 VDC is stated as the setting in all the manuals.

I am looking for feedback from community to assess just how widespread and "common" these problems are. Freedom Won seem to be communicating that these are isolated incidents with my installations, and I have a feeling that they might be downplaying the severity of how common this problem is in the field.

Your feedback and input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you - Jonathan

freedom won

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james7111 commented · Dec 24, 2022 at 09:18 AM

hi Jonathan

i dont know if this issue is in the same area as yours it a Victron easy solar with freedom etower on power outage unit runs well but then after 2-3 hour just turns off and the display on the Victron is blank and you need to turn off the Victron and back on again to work so any help would be greatly appreciated

regards

james

south africa

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nickdb ♦♦ james7111 commented · Dec 24, 2022 at 10:03 AM

While the battery has had issues (as have other manufacturers using the PACE BMS), from your other posts your system seems to have issues and most likely isn't configured well or possibly sized incorrectly.

As already suggested by others, please get your installer to address the issues for you, if they aren't doing a great job, there are experienced installers you can find recommended here:

https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy

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Lawrence commented · Jul 12, 2023 at 04:03 AM

SOC Slide.PNG

Having massive SOC slide/ more like cliff. Upgraded to latest firmware across the board, checked all the settings, FW Anydesk into the system and made tweeks but nothing worked. Battery replaced. The faulty one is now on a lower float charge for a couple of weeks on my test bench to see if the cells will balance. Had cell variance of 0.6- 0.8. which a week in has not altered. Have also pulled out another battery with similar issues and seeing slides and unbalanced cells to a lesser extent on 2 more sites. Sad to see as i am/was massive fan of these batteries.

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soc-slide.png (52.4 KiB)

nickdb ♦♦ Lawrence commented · Jul 12, 2023 at 06:06 AM

Been buying BYD having given up with them. Difference in support and experience is chalk and cheese.

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BERNARD-HEIN FORRER nickdb ♦♦ commented · Jul 20, 2023 at 04:00 AM

Hello Nick I note that you first doubted the installers ....then moved on to BYD...installers always first in line to be accused. lt should be obvious, by now, that Freedom Won (since 2022) have well defined and proven issues which they cannot resolve

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BERNARD-HEIN FORRER commented · Jul 19, 2023 at 07:56 PM

Dear Jonathan, my business have suffered tremendously ....similar to

the FW anomalies as you have already documented. We have 62 FW installations with mentioned issues.

What needs to be said and understood is that the firmware upgrades are akin to re-arranging the Titanic deck chairs.

I say no more, the solution is a Group Act /Litigation to recover our losses and to re-establish integrity in storage systems. We have in-house legal and with a united front we should be able to have a round table with Freedom Won tech gurus, to tell us why they sell FW units with known problamatic BMS systems.....and then request a so-called ticket to justify a weak, unsupportive argument.

Litigation, however costly, is necessary, as this will expose the deeply flawed FW batteries for what they are.

Ben Forrer

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2022-10-15T10:16:42Z

Warwick Bruce Chapman answered · Oct 15, 2022 at 10:16 AM

Hi Jonathan

At the outset, let me state, we are big supporters of Freedom Won. We've got 400+ FreedomWon batteries in the field and we're still heavily invested in their products, buying 2-5 batteries per week from eTower to 80/64.

For the first few years, we had very few issues - all software and none hardware.

From late last year and intensifying in Q1-2 this year, we've had a boatload of hardware issues on FreedomWon batteries (and the old firmware issues). We've performed hardware repairs on a long list of batteries which are are currently compiling to submit to FreedomWon to help them understand the scale of the problems.

We now have a "Battery Day" on a nearly weekly basis which we did not have in the past. This is to attend to maintenance issues. The technical support team at Freedom Won are overwhelmed and they say as much. We often spend hour(s) waiting for them onsite with laptop connected and online on AnyDesk.

Freedom Won cannot accuse us of dropping them. We've taken on the task of doing our own hardware repairs so the experience for customers is better than us having to remove the battery and shut their system down until a third party can repair it.

But, in our opinion, none of that should be happening. The batteries should be robust as they were in the past and the support should be sufficiently scaled and capacitated to meet the requirements of the installed base. I know of at least two very large installers of FreedomWon who have been told by FreedomWon that they're the only ones experiencing problems.

Freedom Won has a track record of not communicating with its customer base (crucially installers). It is high time they changed that and I have personally raised their communication failures with them and asked them to improve that.

To better serve our growing customer base, and after a lot of research, we have added BYD to our offering and are delivering BYD where customers are less sensitive to the 'look' of the solution. Our sales team is still selling FreedomWon as the primary solution in the residential space. It is crucial to us that we have another option in case of serious manufacturing delays as we've had issues with on a few occasions of the recent past. And, I guess, in the long run if the quality and support issues are not resolved, we'll probably move the majority of our solutions onto BYD.

That's us.

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Jonathan commented · Oct 15, 2022 at 10:30 AM

Thank you Warwick for this invaluable feedback!

I too have been told that we are the only company experiencing these problems, and that I needed to go recheck my config settings and read the manuals again.

I have also requested Training Sessions for experienced installers so we can better understand the interaction between their batteries and Victron system, which has been denied.

I am sure that there must be several other "problem sites" installed by numerous companies who don't check the health of their customer's installations post installation.

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robert-schultz commented · Mar 23, 2023 at 03:31 AM

Hi Warwick, also having sites with parallel issues on the light units (seems more on the 20/16 side), e-towers switching off and not restarting.

But being an installer working on remote sites, driving to site 2 to 5hrs just to get there and on site you try to resolve an issue yourself. When support is needed, that can be the same day or sometimes the next day, depending how busy the support people are.

As an installer, working on a hourly rate, that's time lost that you can not book to a client with a new site. Like you mentioned, this did not happen in the past.

Regards

RS

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nickdb ♦♦ robert-schultz commented · Mar 23, 2023 at 05:36 AM

After months, where I couldn't get an accurate SOC, even after a current sensor change, the battery was returned for testing and a loan (new version) battery provided. This new battery was even worse and synced from around 77% to 100% in a couple of minutes.

Eventually got mine back again, with more new firmware, looks like a bias may have been added again. So far it seems better but it is too early to tell, it does sync a little early but this is better than the alternative.

I am looking at a site that has two 20/16's, one new type, which has had endless issues - asymmetric charging, bad SOC causing inverters to shutdown etc. They have had a terrible experience.

After more firmware and replacement current sensors it was looking better but now the batteries are tripping a few minutes after hitting 100% SOC, despite everything seeming fine externally.

I was going to buy more e-towers for some sites but will just put in pylons, never had a moment's problem with those.

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Answer 2 · 2022-10-15T10:21:59Z

nickdb answered · Oct 15, 2022 at 10:21 AM

Hi @Jonathan , there has been a recent uptick in posts from members having unstable systems attached to FW batteries, though from a forum view it’s not easy to tell where the issue is. I know of other (new) packs all reporting SOC drift.

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Answer 3 · 2022-10-17T20:09:53Z

rbj-1 answered · Oct 17, 2022 at 08:09 PM

Hi @Jonathan , I have a FW 10/8 installed with an MPII since early March 2022. The battery has performed very well so far and I haven't had any issues. As part of my legacy equipment (from the days of lead-acid batteries) I still have a BMV-712 connected to the system and can confirm that SOC estimation (especially during slow charging) is terrible. The attached graphs show SOC from the BMV-712 on the left and from the FW on the right for the same time period.

I've learned to live with this since I know to read SOC from the BMV-712 (even have the small display still mounted next to the inverter) and the battery is charging correctly (charge voltage limit drops in line with the BMV-712 reporting SOC > 98%).

capture.png (22.3 KiB)

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Answer 4 · 2022-10-18T11:23:36Z

Jonathan answered · Oct 18, 2022 at 11:23 AM

Thank you! This is brilliant! It in fact confirms our suspicions that this is a built-in flaw with the Freedom Won batteries, and that no amount of firmware updates and settings tweaks can "fix" a hardware problem.

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Answer 5 · 2022-10-19T09:38:38Z

antony answered · Oct 19, 2022 at 09:38 AM

Dear Jonathan

The SoC jump is related to a slight current sensor inaccuracy. This only happens on some sites with Victron inverters. We did establish that the challenge is related to the sensor's difficulty with processing the wave form on the DC bus that is delivered by the Victron inverters. Freedom Won has a software fix for this issue, which needs to be deployed on sites that display this phenomenon. We do not deploy the fix on all batteries because the fix is only applicable to sites that display the issue. From September 2022 we will be using a new type of current censor that will be better suited to dealing with all scenarios.

We were forced to use a new sensor at very short notice last year because of the chip shortages. The previous sensor we used for many years was simply not available. The new sensor is similar to the original sensor.

Please do reach out to us on support@freedomwon.co.za if you have any other sites displaying this problem.

Regards

Antony

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Jonathan commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 09:31 AM

Hi Antony,

Your Technical Support Engineer Rudene communicated to my customer this morning that Freedom Won does NOT yet have the replacement Current Sensors that were supposed to be in new battery units from September, as you state in your "Expert Answer" above.

Additionally, 3 days ago, that same Support Engineer refused to confirm that the Current Sensor was even a problem, while they were loading a new "battery profile" which has done little to fix this ongoing problem.

I think this confusing and conflicting communication is causing a lot of frustration among solar installers, as shown in this Victron Community and other WhatsApp Groups. You also declined the invitation offered by another Victron Community member to address this issue in a closed forum. So here we are...

I think the best would be for Freedom Won to issue a formal statement to their distributors confirming exactly what the problem is, which batteries it might affect (with S/N ranges), and the remediation procedure. This can then be communicated through the correct channels down to the installers that have been supporting you for the past 7+ years.

Jonathan

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Jonathan commented · Oct 20, 2022 at 10:16 PM

Thank you Antony, but I have seen this SOC jump (both from around 80% to 100% as well as crashing from 30% right down to a hard 0% SOC) on 2 Sunsynk installations.

If the BMS reports the SOC over CAN, a standard protocol, I don't understand why only Victron inverters would be affected?

Also, was any extensive R&D done on this alternate current sensor with Victron inverters before these batteries were allowed to be sold to your installers? There seems to be a LOT of installations out there experiencing this SOC drift, and as this is a confirmed hardware-related issue, it doesn't make sense that these are only a small, isolated installations as Freedom Won Support has always stated up until now.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 04:58 AM

@antony@freedomwon.co.za thanks for the info. I have one of the batteries where your team has updated the firmware and now applied charge biases twice. Drift was in the order if 17% per day and post changes is marginally lower (first adjustment of bias was 5%). To me this is outside the realm of “slight”.

They also denied outright there was a sensor at play, so it would help for some consistency in messaging. We all appreciate supply issues have been a challenge. I will be feeding back to support later today but my impression is they are struggling to resolve this by tuning behaviour which could be variable in nature and varies by installation.

If we are on try #3 to resolve the issue, then this does not seem like a reliable solution to me, very much work in progress.

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Jonathan nickdb ♦♦ commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 06:03 AM

I agree very much with Nick here. Freedom Won Support need to communicate with their installers and customers if this is an inherent and known problem with a batch of batteries.

It seems that the rhetoric is denying that this is a Freedom Won problem, but then doing lots of firmware updates and setting changes. And when clarity is sought of why this needs to be done, the question is totally deflected and ignored.

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Answer 6 · 2022-10-21T07:01:22Z

pedaaa answered · Oct 21, 2022 at 07:01 AM

from what i see, these Freedom Won batteries, use the same "Pace-BMS" as BSLBATT does.

I have had the very same SOC-jumps during charging on my BSL´s.

But there is a new BMS-firmware available now, that fixed this issue.

Since latest update a few weeks ago, those rapid SOC-jumps are totally gone. Now SOC calculation seems realistic.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 09:15 AM

Incorrect. They are built on an Orion BMS, the issue is specific to a current sensor as described above. I have seen and had the BSL issues which were more severe, and triggered by a different issue in the BMS, glad they are sorting it finally, but let's not hijack this topic.

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pedaaa nickdb ♦♦ commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 12:22 PM

those from the eTower type battery look exactly like the pace BMS

but OK, i might be wrong

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nickdb ♦♦ pedaaa commented · Oct 21, 2022 at 12:56 PM

Sorry, yes, e-tower is a different animal. Lites are Orion.

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Answer 7 · 2022-10-24T10:30:32Z

antony answered · Oct 24, 2022 at 10:30 AM

The eTower uses a PACE BMS, but this thread is referring to an isolated SoC jump occurence on the Freedom Won LiTE range, which uses the Orion Junior 2 BMS with an external hall effect current sensor.

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Answer 8 · 2022-12-23T08:40:41Z

Apologies for posting on an old thread but it seems to be detailing the exact issues I am having with my Freedom Won LiTE 5/4.

Disclaimer: I am a customer and not an installer, nor do I have the technical knowledge on these setups ;)

I have been having SOC issues on an adhoc basis (sudden loss of charge down from 60% or 80% to 10% in a matter on minutes with no real load < 250w), then whilst out of the province visiting family this week I start getting Low Battery Voltage errors followed by No BMS error notifications from my victron system.

My installer is away on Christmas break and my neighbor was kind enough to pop to my house to take a look.

The battery had tripped so we went through the process of switching on the BMS again and reseting + clearing error codes before putting the breaker back up.

All started operating fine again but a few minutes later the BMS triggered the low voltage errors again and tripped the battery. So I asked my neighbor to just switch the main breaker over to run on grid and bypass the inverter system for now until I can get home next week.

The gauge on the battery display once switched back on shows charge at 100%…

There were voltage changes Freedom Won tech support walked my installer through 2 months ago to try solve the SoC & cell imbalance problems but these seem to have not solved / or caused a different issue?

My installer needs to book it in with Freedom Won when they open in January for assessment but until then my home is back on grid without backup…

However, I am not seeing any answers from Freedom Won on this issue (nor is my installer) which is very concerning as an end customer. If they have not resolved this nor communicated the exact nature of the problem + solution I don’t see how one can place any trust in their products + brand if the whole point of the installation is to have reliable backup power…

Hoping someone has feedback on this?

Answer 9 · 2023-01-11T02:43:00Z

We are the distributor for Freedom Won in NZ.

There are a few points I would like to note here:

The problems with SOC "slide" or inaccuracy is certainly not unique to Freedom Won batteries. I have seen it with multiple batteries, inverter systems and battery monitors. From what I can gather (Antony may be able to clarify this) the main reasons the Freedom Won batteries sometimes experience this slide are:

A, Cell imbalances. The SOC calculation uses the maximum cell voltage when charging and the minimum cell voltage when discharging (along with current). So if the battery cells are not balanced the max/min cell voltages may be far enough apart that a recalibration is triggered. Check the VRM Max/Min cell voltages as a start point, make sure the SOC is reaching 100% regularly and for extended periods of time. Generally in an ESS situation the SOC can stay under 100% for long periods if the battery is small and the load is large, in this case make sure "optimised with battery life" is enabled under the ESS settings and also try setting to "keep batteries charged" for a week or so to balance the cells. Then as a last resort update the Firmware to the latest version. Cell imbalance can also be the reason for the shutdown problems depending on the inverter settings. In a couple of rare cases I have seen it trip the battery MCB.

B: DC ripple will definitely cause a problem with some current sensors. Some inverters and installations will not experience ripple as much as others. Factors such as the inverter typology and size and attached loads can cause different amounts and types of ripple. Again, a Firmware update may fix this but talk with the FW Factory or your distributor first preferably (they may have the fix already without bothering the Factory - that's partly what they are there for!).

C: Occasionally I have seen the comms cable get disconnected or the terminals get corroded or the customer fiddling with the settings in the GX. The GX device then reverts automatically to the Victron Inverter for it's battery monitoring (if battery monitor is set to automatic in the GX device - there are pros and cons to doing this). One good feature of Freedom Won is that if it loses comms to the system it will STAY ON and run stand alone indefinitely. The later Victron FW updates mean that the MPPT will likely stop charging (I don't like this but I can see the logic) but the system will keep running on the inverter and MPPT setpoints for as long as the voltage and currents are within Freedom Won BMS tolerances. The BMS will protect the battery by turning off if there is a problem. In the case of corrosion the BMS comms may come back online and drop out causing the SOC to suddenly change it's reading as it changes from the Inverter to the BMS and back - but this is rare.

Firmware updates are the way to go if no other changes help - they definitely 'can' fix the hardware issues we have seen so far - preferably do this via your distributor through remote access so they can be done in your timezone (not South Africa's) and again so that the tech support load matches the supply chain as it should. We have had excellent support from Freedom Won and have had a very good run considering how many of them are being installed. In one case we had a firmware re-write for a specific problem completed in less than 48 hours.

Answer 10 · 2023-02-02T10:37:14Z

darx answered · Feb 02, 2023 at 10:37 AM

Hi @Jonathan

I'm hoping this messages raeches you seeing this is an old thread. Last week I upgraded my Deepcycle battery bank to a FreedomWON eTower. Only one. Running 48/5000 Multi with CerboGX.

I've been having the Battery Low errors and constant battery Shut Down especially when Grid Drops for loadshedding. The battery would then just switch off and shows ALARM. SOC was 100% and loads <800W at the time of failure.

I've today contacted Support and the same Rudene support Engineer is currently investigating my issue, however not much can be done without them either seeing the battery physically, or me collecting and installing the Remote Support Cable from FW.

Is there currently any UPDATE/SOLUTION on what you've experienced? Is a 'global' software update not required on my eTower? Production Date on the battery State Aug '22.

Kind Regards,

Dawid.

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bruce-davidson commented · May 06, 2023 at 03:10 AM

Can confirm that I am experiencing exactly the same challenge on two installations I support. Only recently started recommending FreedomWon and almost instantly regretted that decision.

Both installs have a single eTower paired with a 48/5000 Multiplus II.

Symptoms are as follows:

eTower states it supports 90amp continuous discharge but in reality, even though the system isn’t reaching 90amp the battery throws ‘High current discharge’ alarms and at times turns itself off for a period as a result of this BMS alarm condition. The BMS also sets the DVCC Discharge Current to zero for afew seconds during these events thereby preventing the inverter from discharging the battery.

Also consistently seeing low voltage (low battery) alarms during periods of moderate loads (50 - 70 amps, well within spec).

Have logged an incident with FreedomWon and they have investigated. They acknowledge there is an issue with the BMS and their workaround is to increase the high current discharge alarm delay timer. This ofcourse doesn’t address the problem - it just reduces the frequency with which it occurs.

Considering this is a premium battery, rates for 1C discharge, which comes at a 30% premium on price - super disappointed!

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Feb 03, 2023 at 03:32 PM

@DarX I know the installer, in this case the e-tower was returned and replaced with another brand, the issue was then resolved.

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Answer 11 · 2023-03-17T13:14:37Z

John Muntanga answered · Mar 17, 2023 at 01:14 PM

Very useful insights here....Im in the process of upgrading to LiFEPo and have been doing a reseacrh for over a year and i had arrived at two choices based on results of my research - Freedom Won and Pylontech. I guess my mind is 90% made up now between the two.

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ppr commented · Mar 20, 2023 at 09:52 PM

Hi John

Sorry to interrupt your brain storming session;
But if you really think about a Pylon, look into the Pytes E-Box 48100R

Down side is certainly the 50A a block, but I know only people having 4 or 6 block.

I can highly recommend it.

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John Muntanga ppr commented · May 23, 2023 at 03:31 PM

@ppr unfortunately (or is it fortunately) I went for FW. Now having the SOC drifts after 3 weeks of usage and the sad thing is I do not see any conclusive solution on this thread.

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John Muntanga John Muntanga commented · Jan 29 at 09:54 AM

Just a follow up update. So my 10 kWH Freedom Won (FW) Lite battery apparently left the factory without proper programming of the current sensor settings and it would trip when almost fully charged. I reached out to FW and through the help of my supplier, VEW Investments, I connected with a Technician (Rudzani) who was so patient and went out of his way to resolve my issue over the weekend. This was a dificult task the fact that the installation site is in a remote area with poor nextwork coverage and very bad internet. Rudzani was so patient even after i count make it to the site the first weekend we had arranged to connect. Fastforward, Rudzani troubleshooted the battery and made the necessary setting and the session came with a bonus, a firmware upgrade. Since then, the battery has never tripped and the SOC calculation is perfect without any funny jumps in the SOC. Performance of the battery is great so far!! I would recome the FW Lite any day!!! @antony@freedomwon.co.za thanks to your staff Rudzani. He needs a raise.

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Answer 12 · 2023-09-11T03:52:43Z

andrew-leversha answered · Sep 11, 2023 at 03:52 AM

Hi @Jonathan,

Experiencing similar issues here in the South Pacific.

We install the LiTE HOME range. 5/4,10/8 and 15/12 with Victron MP, MPII and Quattro's

SOC drift, under-voltage cut off with SOC at 30-40% and the big one at the moment, parrallel batteries not syncing correctly.

Hoping some solutions will come, not holding my breath.

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nickdb ♦♦ commented · Sep 11, 2023 at 05:29 AM

They claim to have addressed this with updated firmware and profiles. If this hasn’t been done, get them to do it remotely.

In many cases new current sensors were needed, this depends on the age of the battery.

Some sites improved after updating, others did not.

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