Slightly confused by Multiplus ii 48/5000 G98 Compliance.
The certificate covers both 3000 and 5000 models and states for "Fully Type Tested Micro-generators (up to 16 A per phase)
ENA shows the 5K as over 3.68kW (as expected):-
https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/Index.aspx?Action=ViewDetail&EID=34144054&tab=search
Is the certificate incorrect, or when configured is there a restriction in ESS limiting grid export to 16A?
Thanks!
Just resurrecting this thread as I am looking into G98/99/100 compliance as I am considering a Mutliplus II (likely the 3kva) for my house here in the UK along with Pylontech batteries. I can see that it has G98 and G99 compliance certs on the website, but interestingly I found a PDF on a UK supplier that suggests it can also be G100 (limited to 3.68kW grid supply) - https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/victron-g100-declaration-multi.pdf
What I am wondering is can this also be achieved using a Multiplus II GX with the optional CT clamp on the grid connection (https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/current-transformer-for-multiplus-ii) rather than a wired AC sensor in the main consumer unit and Color Control CCGX? I only have a single spare way in our CU which would not facilitate having a wired AC sensor without replacing the CU or possibly moving some circuits around.
Also does anyone know with UK rules if it is acceptable to have an electrician commission the circuit for the Multiplus, but DIY install the Multiplus and batteries yourself? I understand it wont be MCS accredited and thus not able to get SEG payments but I am not looking to do that as I want to only buy electricity at cheap rate to charge the batteries and consume the energy myself.
Then went on the DNO website UK Power networks and had it approved.
Not an Electrician but was happy to do it myself. Dont know if its accepatable under UK regs but like doing things myself to cut costs.
Did you submit a G98 or G99?
Did you submit a G100 type approval certificate number?
Asking because I am planning to do this (with a qualified electrician) very soon.
Uk Power networks online form did not ask for an "Installer Accrdiattion/Qualification"? Just wether I was the home owner or an installer
G98 submition.
G100 approval was put on by uk power networks engineer themselves. So dont know of a number for it.
Sorry for the late reply
Does this mean it's now complaint for UK G98 applications? https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Certificate-ESS-G99-1-2021-Multiplus-II-48V-3k(GX)-48V-5k(GX)-24V-3k(GX).pdf
No - that's kiwa issuing a 'certificate'. It's then up to the regulatory authorities to decide if they agree with kiwa - currently, in the UK, ENA don't agree and say 'further information required'. However, ultimately it's down to your electricity distributor (DNO) - the company which owns and controls the distributed grid network - to decide what is connected to their network. Currently, there are lots of examples of DNOs agreeing to Multiplus-II based systems being connected. The best thing to do is contact your DNO.
In an ESS configuration, you have the option to adjust the grid setpoint to zero which means practically no feed-in. That in conjunction with the "don't feed-in excess solar power" e.g. MPPT means you can have a self consumption only system.
Why do you need a larger charger? Lithium charges very fast and using a DC MPPT charge controller you can use a larger charger. I charge my LG RESU 10 in under 4 hours from a 90% discharge state on my Mult II 3000VA. It is used without solar and set up for self consumption grid parallel. See here http://essandsolarsolutions.co.uk for an explanation. I have used this to cut my monthly electricity bills by 50%.
Ultimately it will depend on your actual consumption pattern, Wh and then requirement.
Thanks, my planned use isn’t too different from yours, but Pylontech 7kWh and Agile. Think charge will be around 3hr @35a. 70a was more future proofing in case I expand battery.
Thinking about MPPT, but solar’s hard to justify in the North. That said, I have 400w 24x7 for pond for six months a year- so I may add 2kW of solar. Total daily is around 15kWh.
I already have EV Charger with Modbus charge control, but not using it too much yet. Plan is to get that and batteries onto similar schedule to you Through Cerbo and local plc.
Thanks for your help- like the roof on your site! Would be great for rain-bathing here though...
With the newer generation mono panels you will be surprised how sensitive and efficient they are. I have been looking at defining a solution for someone up north who produces 56kWh in a day, but FIT is not worth it as he also has an EV. Look at the Jinko maxim maybe as they have integrated optimizers for each cell string in the panel.
The room above the garage has a 600mm diameter concrete post for a telescope so it is actually an observatory which is why it slides open ... no longer used for that but soon to be my star bar and lounge. Sadly I only spend a couple of weeks there, but is is totally off grid with only a 4k battery and works.
Hello @chrisgla
My take on it is. Yes, you can limit the inverter output, however, only if the below is adhered to will the MP II 5000VA (4000W) be GS98 compliant. It otherwise, if you disregard the generating capacity, meets the technical Type Testing standards for GS98 & GS99.
"The Manufacturer may restrict the rating of the Micro-generator by applying software settings provided these settings are not accessible to the Customer"
Thanks, but that doesn’t look like it limits export power, it appears to limit the total inverter output instead?
The point of G98 with G100 is to allow self consumption + export to use more than the 3.66kW limit of G98 without significant oversight.
I’m exploring this from a number of perspectives, but there would seem to be benefit to having a UK G98/16a export limited country code/ ESS template . That’s would then seem, more easily manufacturer locked than the above?
A second template for compliance covering 16-19a (or more for parallel) export might be useful
48/3000 doesn’t have this issue, but charging is less.
Pity, the cost of witnessed approval, etc above 16a is basically making system unviable.
Hi @Xtopher
I am in a similar position to you but in addition I already have 2 x 2kW Steca AC inverters with 3.68kW of solar panels.
I would like to add an EasySolar II 48/5000 (which is electrically almost identical with the MP-II), with another 3 to 4 kW of panels connected to its MPPT and 8kWh of LiFePO4 batteries.
AIUI if there are no AC loads or sources on the AC-In side of the inverter then its internal current sensing should be adequate, failing which I can't see why you would need more than the CT accessory.
You also wrote <Also does anyone know with UK rules if it is acceptable to have an electrician commission the circuit for the Multiplus, but DIY install the Multiplus and batteries yourself?>
It's hard to see how a self-install can easily comply with "The Manufacturer may restrict the rating of the Micro-generator by applying software settings provided these settings are not [readily] accessible to the Customer".
The rest of what you are trying to do is probably covered OK by the "Fast Track" G59 approval process, as in inverter mode the MP 3000 can only generate 11Amps, and fail safe operation is not mandatory below 16A so you may not need the G100 declaration.
Unfortunately I need the ES 5000 version as I need the 50A pass-through capability, and since this model can export 19A it opens up a whole new can of worms even though it can be limited to 16A or indeed zero. Looking on the Western Power Distribution web site I cannot see an easy way forward and I am awaiting a callback from them. They also appear not to allow island operation, even though the inverter has an internal anti-islanding relay and grid failure backup is one of its features.
If I learn anything more from WPD or the wholesalers I will post it here.
It would be good if someone from Victron is watching and could post something authoritative about how to comply with the UK regulatory system.
HTH
"For Power Generating Modules with an aggregate capacity < 50 kW 3-phase or 17 kW single-phase, this simplified application form can be used. For Power Generating Modules with an aggregate capacity > 50 kW 3-phase, the connection application should be made using the Standard Application Form (generally available from the DNO website)."
G59 is no longer so I'd advise to get up to speed with the latest G98/G99 requirements which also include AC coupled batteries. Type testing G98/99 merely indicates the device conforms to the parameters set by the DNO for generating devices to be connected to the national grid (UK) and not not cause interference, complies with anti-islanding rules, etc.
My understanding is the DNO is interested in the total aggregate generating capacity of all the connected devices regardless of limiting functions given in a fault scenario they will have to ensure the network/substations etc. can handle the additional power. G100 will likely need expensive hardware the DNO can set and control or them observing ompliance testing, but I do stand to be corrected and cannot speak for any DNO.
When adding capacity it may become more of a challenge as opposed to new installs, but then your DNO will be in touch to discuss the application and their responses are seldomly aligned across regions. None of my DIY customers were ever told by a DNO they were not qualified to do an install of a type tested Victron inverter, but I cannot stress enough that work carried out has to comply with Part P building regulations in this regards and yes there is a difference for e.g. Wales. New circuits will require a qualified electrician to install it and do the relevant notifications.
My personal view on settings being protected by a seller/dealer is that is will be highly unlikely especially in a DIY install and even the systems I access for my customers are fully accessible to them as it does not protect the required feed-in setting only. Most dealers simply won't be set up for it or interested or may charge a monthly monitoring and management fee.
In summary, my advice is to start by submitting the application and take it from there. The essence of it is a quality and clear diagram and then listing of the existing generating devices and additions so the DNO can determine the aggregate power as well as verify ENA type tested certification. Most of the times my DIY customers were surprised by how easy it was as opposed to difficult.
Thanks for the feedback that is very useful.
This will probably be useful to you with regards the G100 'compliance' (I say that loosely, I would imagine it is meant to just smooth over applications).
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/victron-g100-declaration-multi.pdf
Details the bit on the password which DNO's accept (of course if you put a bit of effort in you can find the password but the layman doesnt frequent these forums and find that password). Particularly helpful with the relaxed/fast track G99 application where you can have a combination of 16A solar and 16A battery inverter/chargers but requires limiting to 16A export (seems to be officially named as 'Fully Type Tested Integrated Micro Generation and Storage'). This is what I have been referring too as fast tracked application. So its not a standard G99 application but uses a different form and allows for a faster application (sub 10 days) compared to a standard G99 application (which I think is upto 45 days?) . I will probably end up having to do a full G99 application anyway, so might just get on with it, as batteries are largely out of stock til June so have a while to get it all together.
Also worth noting, where I say DIY, I will be using a local spark to commission the correct circuit and terminate it such that I can connect up the Multiplus to it with him, so will all be Part P done officially.
If your are only installing e.g. the Easysolar-II and DC coupled PV and storage, there is only one inverter involved that can produce a max 4kW (4.4kW if in off grid mode I believe). Since the hybrid system cannot generate more than that regardless of how much DC PV or storage you add, the generator (inverter) is the part that will be approved or aggregate if there are multiples in e.g. a microgrid. When you retrofit an AC coupled battery (own inverter/charger) to a grid-tie PV system or such a new system configuration, the 2 x 16A will apply. Recently 3 of my DIY customers who did their own G99 applications and install had 5kVA Multiplus-II systems approved without any mention of G100 or limiting so, as the trend goes the DNO has bigger fish to fry than worrying about limit these "small" systems. Since these are guidelines as opposed to rules, DNOs still have room for discretion, which is why I don't speculate, but advise to submit an application and then engage in the conversation if they do actually get pedantic.
One thing that was odd is he said they would want to know the size of everything, so not just generation kWh (inverter), but battery kWh and DC solar kWp, even though the only thing they actually care about is the inverter as that's what can put power back to the grid. Looking at form A1-1 there is nowhere to put the details he is talking about, only space to put the generation which would be 4.4kW for the MPII 5kVA?
I also assume should I put an application for the 4.4kW, I can add as much solar or battery behind it on the DC side as I like? As all that can ever go to the grid is the 4.4kW from the inverter. He was saying put in for 7kW now as thats what he can see would be approved with no cost, but I have no idea how you would do that, as I'd have to make up a generator or over specify what the MPII power rating is? All very weird.
I think I will chuck in the G99 application though as the two options I currently have is a MPII 5kVA or 3kVA so at least then I'll have the option for the larger one if I go that route and if I go 3kVA I can just put in the G98 notification.
I am also in discussions with ENWL about the fast track G99 as their site states the limit is 7.36kW which would mean you could have the 5kVA model on its own if solar is then on the DC side rather than AC. BUT the form you then fill out from ENA mentions 2x 16A devices as a named thing so not sure it will work. Don't see why they would be bothered as the 5kVA can only put out 4.4kW sustained so well below what 2x 16A generators could do. I only bring this up as the dealer I am talking to has suggested a 5kVA and DC PV rather than 3kVA and separate 3.6kWp AC PV - which itself is G99 fast track as is 2x 16A generators. The benefit of the DC PV is that we can oversize and get a good amount of energy into the batteries and house loads at the same time as we'd be able to do 4.4kW into the house and more into the batteries at the same time (if I understand it right)
With regards the settings not being accessible to the customer - the dealer I would get it from will configure it up and send it out ready to go for our setup. I just have to wire it up and plug it in. They can remote on for any issues and the settings are then behind the dealer/manufacturer passworded part in the configuration that only certified dealers/installers/etc know (supposedly ;-) )
Hi - I am in WPD area and although I am yet to install I submitted form A1-1 specifying a MULTIPLUS II 48/5000/70-50 and was approved based on 5KW max import on my supply. The approval states that I supply a commissioning report detailing working export limitation but that WPD do not need to witness. Hope this helps.... :)
Thank you @KJHXXX , that is brilliant.
I think my problem is going to be my solar PV. For "integrated microgeneration and storage" the application needs to be on Form A1-2 and there is a limit of 16A/phase for each of the two technologies.
The other issue is persuading them that the EasySolar is electrically the same as the Multi since I have not yet found any certification for it.
But if you could let me have a contact name at WPD that might help to smooth the way....
Many thanks
Thanks @ejrossouw, very useful. But this morning I was told by a dealer EasySolar II was not approved in the UK yet. I couldn't find it on the ENA approved list, so presumably it will be coming along eventually, any ideas when that might be?
A bit hypothetical as I have been quoted 18 weeks delivery on the ES whereas there is stock of the MP-II in Europe, so I might go with that and add the MPPT later, there is not much price difference and the MP has a smaller case.
The dealer also said the MP is definitely approved for backup use as it has the LoM disconnection device internally, he has "lots" of customers who do this. However I find this hard to reconcile with the declaration on all the forms that "the Power Generating Modules will not operate when there is a loss of mains situation". Does the MP certification exempt it from this requirement??
BTW as you seem to have experience of dealing with DIY customers how can I get hold of you outside this forum?
"the Power Generating Modules will not operate when there is a loss of mains situation"
AFAIK, this simply refers to not operate on the grid side i.e. put power back into the grid - for obvious reasons there may be people working on the grid trying to restore it and you could electrocute them. As the MPII has an 'anti-islanding' feature, it disconnects itself completely from the grid when the grid connection goes dead. So in this sense, the PGM will not be operating on the grid when there is a loss of mains. It will only provide power to the critical loads connection on the device in this instance, which is completely separate from the grid at that point. This satisfies the DNO's need for the device not to be 'operating'. Once the grid is back up, the MPII detects it, attempts to synchronise and if it can, it will reconnect to the grid.
I believe this advice is wrong <does not need DNO approval if just being used for UPS backup >.
The Multiplus is inherently capable of feeding back to the grid so needs approval even if you do not plan to use it like that, as the DNO may want to put other limitations on you e.g. G100 Export Limitation as it is entitled to do, depending on the strength of the grid in your locality.
Follow the guidance on your DNO's web site. For former WPD (now branded National Grid) see e.g.
https://www.nationalgrid.co.uk/downloads-view-reciteme/436849
As the doc @sharpener points to says, batteries are deemed Power Generating Modules and if connected to the network (e.g. via an inverter) are subject to DNO approval. I'm in the middle of trying to sort out approval for the same system (MP-II used for UPS, no feed in). Best advice seems to be email the DNO and ask. National Grid got back to me within 2 hours, first advice (from admin person) was that G98 would do, but now waiting for an engineer to get in touch. Supplier suggests also looking at this:
https://www.energynetworks.org/operating-the-networks/connecting-to-the-networks/
and yes in Victron's settings under GRID tab for 'UK: G98 and G99' grid standard' details CANNOT BE altered by anyone. These are settings set by Victron used at/for type tests.
AND
Hi All,
The latest (as per post's date) ENA's Engineering Recommendation G98 Issue 1 Amendment 7 (October 2022) from ENA on page 24-25 it says
so it is quite clear that there are no particular certifications are required BUT common sense and understanding of safety rules (fundamentally important!) and manufacturer's installation rules also.
and it follows with 8.2 Commissioning with a quite simple test 'removing the supply to the Micro- generator during operation and checking that the Interface Protection operates to disconnect the Micro-generator from the DNO’s Distribution Network'.
The above test it is very important as if completed successfully the test proves that in case of DNO's loss of supply the inverter islands (it is not anymore AC Grid Tied!)
This is a SAFETY. Why? imagine what can happen if your 10kw or 20kw storage batteries can still feed in DNO network after DNO loss of supply. Once DNO loss of supply is detected inverter cannot stay AC Grid Tied-in. The inverter shall switch back from island mode to ac grid tied-in only after DNO restores supply.
