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auroratoucan avatar image
auroratoucan asked

Quattro ESS - Grid parallel vs AC-OUT ESS questions again!

I'm finalising the design of my ESS system and have some questions. The system is for a grid-connected house in the UK. Primarily to store excess summer PV, but also to charge the batteries in the winter from "Intelligent Octopus" or other cheap-rate nighttime electricity. The grid is generally reliable, but there is talk in the media of a small chance of blackouts this winter.


I've bought most of the system components to experiment with parts of it off-grid, before having it properly connected to the grid by my electrician.

  • I've got a Quattro 10k 48v (Thought having "AC-in-2" could be useful for generator or VTL future use) - Easily meets peak household requirements.
  • Cerbo GX
  • Lynx Power In / Shunt / Distributor
  • ET112 (If required, see below)
  • 13.5kwh battery


Other

We've got 7.5kw of grid-tied solar (I might move these panels to Victon MPPT, or certainly any expansion of PV would be with Victron MPPT)


Ohme Home Pro EV charger (7kw).


I need some help deciding whether to ask for it to be connected "Grid Parallel" or have some/all loads connected to AC-OUT-1. Maybe there are some differences in ESS operation between the two options that I'm not aware of.

I did some pros/cons from what I've read (please let me know if incorrect)

Grid parallel ESS

Pros:

Quattro failure wouldn't affect the normal on-grid operation.


Cons:

In event of grid failure parallel loads on AC-in are lost

ET112 meter required at additional cost

Maybe not so responsive in keeping export to zero, as having to wait for meter data?

AC-OUT ESS

Pros:

In event of grid failure loads on AC-out-1 are supported

No need for ET112 meter

More accurate/responsive power monitoring/switching


Cons:

Quattro failure (or even restart?) would turn off loads - Could be bypassed in event of failure.


Any considerations I've missed? It looks like you must use ac-out-1 if you want to keep loads during grid failure. Grid Parallel ESS does not have UPS function.

ESS
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5 Answers
sharpener avatar image
sharpener answered ·

Yes, that is a fair summary. As your PV is << the Quattro rating you have no problems with the 1:1 rule so putting them and the loads on AC-out is the way to go.

I and others have a manual changeover switch so the loads on AC-out can be switched to the incoming supply in case of inverter problems. Neater is to have a c/o contactor with the coil powered off the inverter output then it is automatic. Perhaps with an indicator light. And a manual switch so you can force it into bypass.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·

@sharpener are you able to recommend a changeover switch for this purpose? I think it would be a wise precaution to design that into my system. I've got a MP-II 48/5000 which has a passthrough rating of 50A.

Edit: Deleted question about the 1:1 rule as I found the answer.

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Jay avatar image
Jay answered ·

I'm racking my brains over this too. I keep reading the ET112 creates a lag in the system response when stepping down after demand has dropped and this is eating at me. I wonder if this is the ET112 refresh or something that could be fixed in Venus OS to read it quicker.

I've ordered this meter just in case I need it and having to create an expensive topology where the meter tails are running to the inverter. I feel the expense of running extra cable is completely unnecessary if the ET112 was resolved. Seems to be for the last 2 years at least.

What have you done to overcome this lag besides cabling directly to inverter and bypassing ET112?

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sharpener avatar image
sharpener answered ·

@craigc I fitted this and it is quite satisfactory but the web site says they no longer stock them.

This one appears to be similar.

@Jay123 my ET112 is to measure the PV fed into AC-Out, not the grid balance on AC-In. It works OK for my application. Other threads suggest that the external CT accessory can be installed tens of metres away by extending the cable with shielded twisted pair, and this might be at least as good as trying to extend an ET112 but I have no personal experience. Measuring grid balance at a distance is such a basic requirement e.g. for an inverter in a detached garage that I am surprised there is no official Victron-endorsed solution.

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Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
Thanks @sharpener I have ordered a Fusebox SCO125 changeover switch in metal enclosure. Makes sense since both of my consumer units are also Fusebox branded. Looks pretty easy to install and I have a suitably sized slot to fit it in. Hopefully I'll rarely need it but it's certainly good to have, especially for maintenance purposes or in the event of MP-II failure or overload. I really like Fusebox gear although those stupid metal blanking plates they supply as standard are a nuisance at best and a danger at worst! I have some proper blanking modules on the way too.

Thanks again

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Jay avatar image
Jay answered ·

I've ended up running 25mm^2 cable from meter to garage where the inverter is installed.

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Juha Tuomala avatar image
Juha Tuomala answered ·

Documentation on this is quite thin https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/Energy_Storage_System/en/system-design.html#UUID-2a75dc93-2812-049c-b579-65e20ca64554

Victron could add relevant points from this discussion to it.

- 1:1 rule and devices cost

- cons of loss-of-grid

- required grid meter

- efficiency considerations: ac-dc-ac conversions and feed-in-and-out loss

- ac-output freq manipulation cons

- wiring considerations: longer distances, crosssection, cost

- pv-inverter higher tracker voltage advantage and bigger strings

- instant need of three Multi/Quattro in 3~ system at ac-out coupling

- pv production size: for own consumption or major excess for feed-in

- direct dc-mppt pros


ping @mvader (Victron Energy)

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