Three Smart Orions 30A are not charging at full power - propably engine shutdown detection issue

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

Hello Community,

I have an issue with my orion’s setup inside my RV/Camper.

Here is the whole setup:

-Car: Citroen Jumper 3.0 HDI 2011 177HP

-Car battery 110Ah bought half year ago

-Auxiliary batteries: 2x200Ah LifePO4 connected in parallel (total 400Ah with 12V). Regarding the docs from this batteries - each should be capable to handle 100A of charging easly.

-Three Orion 12/12 30A TR Smart Isolated

-Connection:

A). From Car battery to orion devices - 6 meter length 16mm2 cables (each + cable have 40A fuze/fuse)

B). From orion’s to Aux battery - 1 meter length 16mm2 cables (also each + cable have 40A fuze/fuse).

C). All three orions (positive cables) are connected to one + from first battery and all three orions negative cables are connected to - from the second battery. I have all devices in my RV connected this way (I’m not an electrician - i have found all informations on internet).

D). All three orions negative cables are connected to the car chassis (to the same car chassis is connected a car battery negative short cable ~20cm). All positive orion cables are connected to car battery positive clump (i can make a photos tommorow).

From the beggining I was using the default settings and chargers was not working properly (I connected them using manual with im my opinion - a proper way. I disconnected the remote adapter, connected input, configured the battery type in application and set it as chargers, connected then output auxiliary batteries and then connected the remote adapter to activate devices.

So all three orions have Battery settings set as LiFePo4, with default settings which are:

Charging voltage:

Absorb voltage: 14.20V

Float phaze voltage: 13,5V

Bulk:

Bulk limit time: 10h 0m

Voltage move for Bulk: 0.10V

Absorption:

Adaptive absorption time: disabled

Constant absoprtion time: 2h 0m

(i’m translating it from polish to english - but i’m sure you know this options well).

I have engine shutdown detection configured with default as smart alternator - and I believe the issue is with this feature. I’m not sure if smart alternator is a proper config for my car - I need a help with it from a person who knows this devices well.

Here are the settings for Engine Shutdown Detection:

Starting Voltage: 14.00

Delayed start voltage: 13.30

Delay for delayed start voltage: 120s

Shutdown voltage: 13.1V

And here is the behaviour:
-When I starts a car then after around one minute all three orions are charging and my App shows around 60A total charging - which is not bad for me (i’m aware that getting the catalogued 30A per orion is hard, because of wires length etc).The Orion App shows on each orion the voltage input (from alternator) which is above 14V.

-After few minutes of charging - two from three orions are not charging at all (charging then is around 21A from only one orion) - in victron app I see that two orions are shutdowned and only one is charging. The one remaining orions shows below 13V input.

-When I proceed driving - after around 20-30KM (15 minutes) all three orions in victron app shows that are charging - but i’m getting maximum of 35-38A of charging. It does not change even after 150KM of drive (all orions in this stage 30KM> shows around 13.1V input in the app).

My troubleshooting:

I have created a support case - it was automatically attached to local company in poland which should help me with that. They have sent me a proper way how to connect all the orions - I confirmed that all the connections are correct - and then they said that it have to be an issue with an alternator in the car (I don’t rule out this option - the car is old and alternator can be damaged also), but before going to the car specialist and lose a money (i have to buy a hotel to have a place to live when a car is repairing) i tried to dig in the internet.

I have found on reddit forum a few issues very similar to mine. I followed one of them and changed the parameter “Shutdown Voltage” in “Engine Shutdown Detection” from default 13.1V to 12.9V.

Now i’m after a 30 minute drive and behaviour was way better then before. I saw again around 60A charging at start and it drops later but only for few Amps - it did now goes below 50A - so it is like 30% better then before. I did not have much time today to test it further - I will try to test it tommorow (my batteries are almost dead so tommorow i need to make a long drive). And during this drive the input in victron app drops from above 13.1V to around 12.95V, but the output raises from 13.4V to like 13.7V.

I think that I have to tweek the configuration of this engine shutdown detection to fit to my alternator. I want to do it in proper way - but I would like to get an assist from someone more educated in electronics then me if possible. Maybe someone here have the same car and know the best configuration parameters for this functions? (engine shutdown detection etc). Maybe you guys can guide me which parameters are worth and safe to change to test it further?

Tommorow after work I will check the voltage from gauge/multimeter/voltmeter directly from the car battery also.

Thanks in advance for help.

Regards, Mateusz

[pwfarnell]

Yes, it is the alternator output voltage that is causing the issue, the manual has a section on the problems of these smart alternators. I can not tell if it is workin normally or has a fault. The minimum you really want to reduce the engine shutdown detection to is 12.8V, a fully charged lead acid to stop you discharging the vehicle battery. The trouble is some smart alternators reduce below this voltage and you also have to account for voltage drop.

What you really need to do in this case is connect a 12V ignition signal to the remote ports on the Orions so they always work when the engine is on and over rides the engine shutdown detection if the voltage is lower.

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

Hello,

Thanks for detailed answer, it really helps.

Maybe it is worth to try to completely disable engine shutdown detection (after i start the engine of course) and test if charging is working properly then?

Before i shutdown the engine i will of course enable engine shutdown detection feature again.

Maybe this test will isolate the issue?

I could run a few small cables below the floor when started the rv project, now it will be hard to achieve, because everything is already built. Of course the electric box is on the back of the car the worst place to provide new cables.

But maybe i can move all orions to drive cabin and comnect them with existing 6meter cables with auxiliary batteries idk.

Regards,

Mateusz

[pwfarnell]

Yes, I think it would be a good idea for an experiment to disable engine shutdown detection or reduce the voltage to 12.0V and see what it operates at.

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

Hi again

I’m after the tests, i’m not sure if all works good or not - here are the results.

First test was with “Engine Shutdown Detection” feature Disabled. As video below shows, all three orions was working in a loop - loop starts with charging, input voltage is going lower and lower, and orions then stops charging. After few seconds all orions again starts charging, input voltage is going lower and lower and then orions again stops charging. During the charging it goes even above 14V output to the battery. I catch few times on my auxiliar battery apps - and it was showing around 48A on first battery, and around 37A on second battery - but of course it was present for a second or two, because orions then stopped charging.

Video with first test:

Then as you sugessted - i performed the second test with enabling “Engine Shutdown Detection” feature but set a “Shutdown Voltage:” to 12.0V. Behaviour is a little different but still similar - now only one orion was charging, sometimes second and third tried to start charging but only for a second or two. Sometimes none of them was charging for a minute or two. The video really explains everything, if you could find some time to look at it it would be great

I saw sometimes some strange voltage like 7V etc i don’t know.

Second test video:

The last thing i did is to measure a voltage on the car battery while idle and while engine is running.

When engine is powered off (i had a ride few minutes ago) the voltage on car battery is 12.83V.

When I start the engine - the voltage goes to 14.02V, stays like it for around a minute and it starts going down. It drops to 13.82V after one next minute, then to 13,75V. I have started to add some throttle - it is strange because it does not affect the voltage - the voltage even goes lower when i add throttle. After I end adding throttle - it goes even to 13.6V. I make a video with it, but it is too large - so I uploaded it on youtube: (the first video when I starts the engine did not save on my phone, but it was showing ~14.02V for a minute or less and then it starts dropping (maybe orions started charging? ) I had a problem to hold a phone, positive wire, negative wire and light, so sometimes i disconnected one of the wires from cat battery (this drops to 0V or to 6V are because of my mistakes). It usually keeps the 13.82V the most of the time, and then when I add throttle it goes lower and when I release a throttle it goes even more lower (to even 13.6V - it is at the very end of the last video).

volt test

Maybe you guys know what the issue is. It would be great if someone have an idea what could be wrong. It was nice to see even for a second or two seconds this 90A of charging - WOW.

(sorry for my bad english - it is not my native language )

Regards,

Mateusz

[Justin]

@gover12

Citroen Jumper 3.0 HDI 2011 177HP

I would certainly note that from what I can find online, you only have a 130A alternator on this vehicle (unless you’ve upgraded it since) and 3x Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30s, to produce full rated output, would be pulling ~105 - 120A from that - which runs the very real risk of burning out your alternator very very quickly. It’s possible that your alternator is simply de-rating to protect itself from letting out the magic smoke.

General rule of thumb, on OEM alternators, is to plan for no more than 50% of its rated output as a continuous factor (an alternator’s rating is max, not continuous) which would give you ~65A of continuous output capability, minus the chassis loads being supported (possibly ~10-30A depending on what’s running), which leaves relatively little in terms of what you could support for additional loads like the Orion-Tr Smart units.

[pwfarnell]

OK, so the voltage at the input to the Orion chargers is going very low, even disabling engine shutdown detection you still have a low voltage lock out and you are going down to this.I

When you measured the car battery at 13.6V to 14.0V were the Orions charging without engine shutdown detection or a low shutdown voltage. This is a very useful test.

1. If the car battery is at 13.5V or higher when the Orions stop / reduce charging then the problem is not the alternator but the positive wiring from car battery to the Orions or the negative back through the chassis. Using the chassis for negative return is not ideal and the chassis connections are sometimes poorly made, not cleaned back to bare metal or older connections corroded. It is often best to wire direct from battery negative to the Orions negative.

2. If the car battery voltage drops very low when the Orions charge then the alternator is probably the problem.

From your description you have 6m of 16mm2 cable for each Orion. A voltage drop calculator gives 0.5V drop for this cable at 30A so it is noticable but not large enough to cause your problem.

Are your fuses the type that will blow which is the best option. Or do you mean resettable fuses like the ones below, these low vost unbranded items have a poor record and often have high resistance and high voltage drop. If you have these try bypassing them.to

Voltage Drop Calculator | 12 Volt Planet Cable Calculator

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

I’m using this fuses, but in 40A version:

Q: When you measured the car battery at 13.6V to 14.0V were the Orions charging without engine shutdown detection or a low shutdown voltage. This is a very useful test.

A: I set all Orions again to default settings before testing the car battery (engine shutdown detection was ON, and with 13.1V shutdown voltage. I did not catch the Victron App during this tests - I was run out of free hands ) I think they could start charging when this Voltage drops to this 13.6V at the end (and this V did not got higher when I used throttle).

I have few time now to do test again - should I measure the car battery voltage after engine start and power of all three orions? (there is an toggle option to “Disable Charger” in orion settings.)

Here is my connections (first photo):

Second photo:

Here you can see this fuses which I use:

There is really not much space in this battery box - I did all my best to fit there everything - but i’m aware that probably it is not the best connection way.

Here is the second side at the back of the car:

Inside this big wooden box are then short cables (around 1meter length) with the same 40A fuses to connect to the output (auxiliary batteries connected in parallel).

[pwfarnell]

Looking at how the 3 negative Orion cables connect to the main battery cable means that the Orion negatives are better connected than I thought. The only thing is making sure all terminals are flat and the bolt is tight to get good contact.

The fuse you use is probably the problem and source of the voltage drop, try and bypass them as a short term test. There are lots of posts on here where people have had problems with them causing high voltage drop. Replace them with proper fuses.

Midi Link Fuses

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

Hello again,

I’m after few more tests right now.

I also modified the installation inside the car battery box.

Now i’m using recommended fuses (midi) by you. It looks like that:

Firstly i connected all orions without a fuse at all in car battery box. And I recorded the behaviour on voltmeter.

I was using Engine Shutdown Detection to Off.

I saw, that Voltage measured from car battery is growing until it gets above 14V, and then (i guess) that orions start charging, and voltage is dropping until 11,6V. Then it resets and is growing again to above 14V, when it reach above 14V - then orions start charging and voltage is dropping again below 12V.

All the tests were performed without a fuse on car battery side (cables screwed).

First tests was performed with Engine Shutdown Detection disabled at all:

shutdown

the second test was with engine shutdown detection ON and shutdown voltage set to 12.8V: (this test shows that it is stable on 13.1V to 13.2V on the car battery side during orions charging).

12,8V

Here is how orions are connected to the auxiliary batteries: (I will replace the fuses to the recommended midi ones on this side also - but I will do it in next week - I have to order them)

Thanks in advance for help

Regards,

Matt

[pwfarnell]

It does look like all 3 Orions at 90A is too much for the alternator if the voltage is dropping to 11.6V under full load.

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

Ok, so alternator should be replaced. I need to find out what version I have in my car. I saw that Citroen Jumper 3.0 HDI have alterlators with 110A or 140A or 150A. Knowing my bad luck - I propably have the smallest one 110A (but i’m not sure). I’m wondering if replacing it with new one but bigger (150A for example) is supported.

[pwfarnell]

Often when an alternator is quoted as say 150A, this is when it is cold, when it heats up it will only produce say 110 or 120A. For lithium battery charging it is a good idea to keep the current draw to around 2/3 of the rated power, I run my 175A alternator at 120A charging my lithium batteries.

[gover12 (Mateusz Slezak)]

I asked the car mechanics and propably i have a 110A version (i do not have even ac cooler in car, it is a really poor version), which is too low for 90A orions. I checked and there is 180A altermator available for my car, im not yet sure if it will fit but i will look to pit it in my car.