Power supply in the Landcruiser is a 14.0V 130A alternator connected to a lead acid start battery with a resting voltage of 12.8V. This feeds a 1x200Ah Li battery in the Cruiser via an Orion Tr 12/12-30, ( 6B&S cable, 4m run), and a 2x200Ah Li battery bank in the Caravan via an Orion XS, ( 6B&S cable, 13m run). However, I only get 7.8A and 7.6A bulk charge respectively and would like to increase both.
These are the values and settings: Cruiser / Caravan
Output voltage: 13.2V / 13.2V
Output current: 7.6A / 7.8A
Input voltage: 13.0V / 13.0V
Input current: 7.9A / 8.1A
Input current limit: na / 30A
Output current limit: na / 50A
Engine shutdown start voltage: 13.7V / 13.6V
Engine shutdown delay voltage: 13.5V / 13.4V
Shutdown voltage: 13.0V /13.0V
Input lockout: 12.8V /12.8V
Restart value: 13.0V / 13.0V
Hopefully this is enough information for some ideas to be generated on how I might optimise DC-DC charging, (ps the Solar is working great).
I helped a mate install a Bluetti charger 1 with a 100/50 MPPT. Get 560W of charging. The Bluetti charger 1 outputs 56V at 11A to the MPPT. He decided on this setup after reading and watching reviews of the performance of Orion XS. Also, the cable size from the Bluetti to the MPPT is very small compared to a 50A cable.
What are your configured absorption and float voltages. The quoted 13.2V, is that a setting or measurement, it is is a measurement then from where. If it is the voltage you have set then I am not surprised at low charging rates because it is too low, it needs to be 14.2V.
Have you checked the voltage at Orion terminals and battery terminals to see what your voltage is.
What exactly is 6B&S cable in mm2. How far from start battery to Orions and from Orions to lithium batteries.
The configured battery voltages are for a standard Li battery, Absorption 14.2V, Float 13.5V for both Orions. The 13.2V Output voltage is measured voltage, (13.0V Input voltage).
6B&S = 6 AWG = 13.5mm2 cable size. Both Orion’s are <0.5m from the Li batteries and 4m / 13m form the alternator for the Cruiser / caravan.
And No I have not cross checked the voltages with a multimeter, assuming the Victron readout was correct.
You need to read and fully understand Section 4.2 of the Orion XS manual regarding engine shut down sequence, the Orion Tr 12-12/30 follows the same logic.
If VIN ≤ Vshutdown, the charge current will be reduced to prevent VIN to drop below Vshutdown.
What is happening is that you have set a 13.0V as your shutdown voltage and 13.0V is what your Orions are controlling to by giving much lower current.
The question is why you only have 13.0V at the Orion input when you say you have a 14.0V alternator.
You could just ignore the voltage issue and set a lower shutdown voltage, perhaps temporarily to confirm you can get more current.
Do you have a smart alternator that can run at lower output voltage. If so read Section 4.2 of the manual because these are problematic to set up.
If you alternator is not smart and the output voltage (measure it) is barely above 13.0V then you need to get a higher voltage regulator fitted or the alternator overhauled.
If the alternator is not a smart alternator and the voltage is 14.0V as you say you need to investigate the voltages further. When charging use a multimeter to measure the voltage at the alternator, starter battery and Orion input (which should be as reported on the app). If you have 1.0V drop over such short cables (including alternator to starter battery) you need to find any loose connections, poor crimps, undersized connections, purely connected fuses or breakers. Use the multimeter to look for voltage drop over components and sections of cable. You also ned to make sure that your negative cable is grounded to a suitable location and all ground connections are also good. The ground wire on a non isolated Orion does not provide much current carrying but it does provide the 0V measurement point for voltage and if this is connected to the wrong location or is too small it can give the wrong voltage measurement. Finally, are you using the cheap resettable breakers from the likes of Amazon / ebay as shown below, these sometimes have a high resistance, check for voltage drop.
What model Landcruiser? Many of the older models have temperature compensated alternators that start at around 14 to 14.5V when cold but rapidly reduce to the low 13s as they warm up. It plays havoc with DC charging systems and also undercharges anything other than a conventional flooded lead acid starter battery. My old 100 VX from 2002 has this issue. I used a Shottky diode installed via a piggyback fuse to fox the voltage sensing circuit. It boosts the alternator voltage to around 14.7V max and floats at 13.7 on a hot day. This allows me to run an AGM start battery and gives more headroom for the automatic engine shutdown detection settings of my Orion XS.
I’m not sure about newer models with smart alternators but the XS does also allow to disable automatic engine detection and use a direct connection from an ignition switched source to control the XS. .
Thank you for your response. I did a few tests today to see if I could change the result. Engine OFF.
Start battery 12.70V (measured)
Orion Tr Input 12.70V (measured), 12.7V (displayed), State: OFF
Orion XS Input 12.67V (measured), 12.8V (displayed), State OFF
Engine RUNNING, Engine Shutdown OFF
The Orion Current remained the same @ 11.6A
For the Orion XS to shutdown the Shutdown Voltage needs to be > 12.7V. If I set the Start/Delay/Shutdown voltages at 12.95V / 12.90V / 12.8V from my understanding this is too close to the 13.1V input voltage and the output current will be modified. However, I do not understand why the output current did not change when the Engine shutdown is turned off. If this can be fixed I could add a 100A smart battery protect between the start battery/ alternator and the two Orion’s and leave the Engine Shutdown off.
I have a 2023 76 Series Landcruiser, the last of the V8’s with a standard alternator, (not smart). The output voltage is 14.0V, but I have not tested it on a hot day. It is winter here in Aus. I cannot use an ignition switch on the XS because it is located in the caravan. However, I could use a VSR (Smart battery protect) in the Cruiser to isolate the feed to the van.
The Orion TR looks OK, 0.1V drop on input and achieving absorption voltage.
The Orion XS is clearly limited by input voltage drop, why it did not increase current with engine shutdown off I do not know. You need to investigate this voltage drop. Have you checked the voltage drop calculation, plenty of on line calculators. If the Orion XS is in the caravan then voltage drop will make engine shutdown detection even harder to set up.
I am assuming the 13m conductor path length to caravan includes both positive and negative paths added together? This would be about right for batteries mounted near the front of a trailer.
IMO for the XS capable of up to 50A a 6AWG (13.5 sq.mm) conductor is too small and will lead to high volt drop of 0.33V at 20A, 0.5V at 30A and 0.83V at 50A max. current. An upgrade to 25 sq.mm will halve the volt drop you are getting on the feed to the XS.
If your earth path includes chassis connections these are often subject to corrosion because of dissimilar metals in the bolts (galvanised), lugs (tin/copper) and chassis (steel) so they need regular cleaning and are best placed in a clean dry location to reduce volt drop.
If the alternator in your 76 is not smart then it may well be temperature compensated. In my 100VX the Denso alternator has the temperature sensor built in so it measures alternator temp and not battery temp.
It will be worthwhile hooking up a voltmeter to monitor alternator voltage as the vehicle warms up. Cheap ones that plug into the lighter socket are easy to find and accurate enough.
The Orion XS is already obsolete. The Bluetti charger 1 with an MPPT is far superior. 14M @ 12V > 50A is not good. You are better sending 56V at 11A 14m. I dont understand why Victron did not look at something like this. The Bluetti universal MPPT changes everything.
Thank you for your replies. I agree with your analysis. My plan moving forward is:
Install a Victron smart battery protect 100A ($70AUD) in the engine bay and turn off engine shutdown on both Orion’s, (or at least the XS). And check again for voltage drops due to bad connections.
Consider two alternate solutions:
2a. Run 8m of twin 25mm2 cable, ($250AUD), on the van and 5m of single 25mm2 cable, ($70AUD) on the Cruiser. This is not an easy job on the van as the existing 13.5mm cables run through the chassis and maybe difficult to pull through.
2b. Fit a Bluetti Charger 1, ($460AUD), in the engine bay for the caravan feed and set the output to 56V/ 10A. Then replace the Orion XS with a Victron 100/30 MPPT controller, ($147AUD), in the van. (I am assuming Owen is correct and the DC-DC converter output is good for the MPPT input.) I do like the ability to reduce the Bluetti output back to a standard 12V for other connections.
I need to do the maths and a little cost benefit analysis to decide.
I will consider 100/50 cf 100/30, as I wish to limit the charge rate to ~30A. Thanks for the video link. Obviously the Charger 1 is not IP rated so I need to consider mounting it inside the cabin and routing the cables in and out. Currently they run straight from the start battery along the chassis to the towbar.
An alternative is an Orion-Tr 12/48-8 12V to 48V converter rated at 380W. This should give me ~26A @ 14.2V absorption in the van.
If you get the 50A controller, you can set the charge current to 30A, or you can set the Bluetti to a lower output. We put my mates under the dash of the Ford Ranger and ran a 2-core 2.5mm cable to the back.
The good thing about using an alternator charger is that you have logic there to check if the alternator is running. If you want to use the Tr 48V you will need a VSR from the battery, like a battery protect, to check if the voltage is high; otherwise, it will run all the time.
In Australia, I would need to place the Bluetti in the cabin as the engine bay could exceed 60C and being only IP20 rated protected from the elements. I travel to remote parts of Aus and need built in reliability. Additionally, I believe I still need a VSR considering the Charger 1 spec are: 12.5V: Power on, 12.6V: Start charging and 12.0V: Stop charging, when the resting voltage of my start battery is 12.8V.
In conclusion: I found I could use only the Orion Engine Shutdown Detection for the short run Cruiser battery bank, (6 awg single cable with chassis return) because the cable voltage drop was minimal. The longer cable run to the van had sufficient voltage drop that I could not use the ESD. Voltage drop is a function of current. The Shutdown voltage needs to be set higher than the resting voltage of the battery, (ie V drop=0 when I=0). If it is set higher the Orion turns on and off until it depletes the start battery below shutdown voltage. The solution was to fit a VSR, (Voltage sensing relay) at the start battery and not use the Engine Shutdown feature of the Orion.
However, the Orion still did not reach I max setpoint. I have yet to test the Input lockout setpoints to understand how they influence the output.
The Bluetti Charger 1 suggestion opened up a good alternative. By using a voltage converter, 12 to 48V or 12 to 56V, near the start battery and running it into an MPPT regulator at the other end reduces losses by 4~5 times. Using an Orion-Tr 12/48-8 (380W) 12 to 48V converter would be easier to mount as the Bluetti has an IP20 rating and would need to be mounted inside the cabin. The choice of a 100/50 or 100/30 MPPT regulator will handle the higher input voltage, (the Orion is only 9-17V).
Being conservative by nature, I will continue to test my small improvement, before going to the more left field greater improvement.
Thank you all for the discussion.
