Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-18 A

DIY
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1

Hello

I’m considering installing a DC/DC charger in my motorhome. The model that caught my attention is the Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-18 A non-isolated.

I know this device isn’t designed for that, but this is just a theoretical consideration, so:

  • What would happen if a voltage were applied to its output while it was switched off, with no reverse current flowing? Could this cause safety issues? Damage to the device? Or anything else…?

Why do I ask? Because when my vehicle is connected to mains power, a current of 6 A is sent to the starter battery. I don’t think this is via the connection that will support the DC/DC charger (still to be checked). But just in case… Could you advise me?

Thank you.

2

A bit of information about the components installed in the motorhome wouldn’t go amiss, since each electrical control unit handles it a little differently.

3

In fact, in the motorhome, I have an EBL Shaudt 220-2, powered by a 10 mm² cable from the alternator, which charges the leisure battery while driving. As part of replacing the gel battery with a 100 Ah lithium one, I need to install an 18 A DC-DC “booster” on this line. The problem is that this same line also supplies power back to the starter battery when the engine is off and the vehicle is connected to mains power (to prevent this battery from discharging during extended stays, with a maximum current of 6 A). That’s my dilemma.

4

An Orion TR Smart is only available in an isolated version.

If it is charged from the starter battery, don’t let the Orion switch on via engine-running detection.

It has a small connection that allows you to switch the Orion on.

Make sure you mount the Orion upright because of heat generation

5

Thanks VicTron54 for your clarifications.

However, I have 5 questions:

a) Why not let the device switch on by detecting the engine?

b) Would the small terminal you mentioned be the terminal block with a jumper that needs to be removed and replaced with a manual switch?

c) Is it possible to switch the Orion on and off via the app?

d) If the Orion is disabled (engine detection: Off), will that allow my return current (floating charge to the motor battery from the 220 V mains) to pass?

e) Does this device get very hot?

Thanks

6

When an external charger is connected to the starter battery, the Orion thinks the engine is running once the voltage reaches a certain level.

I think the 14.00 volts Victron has set is a bit high.

You can switch off the Orion in the app, but that’s intended for maintenance work.

With the jumper connection, you can make the Orion switch on in various ways; see the manual.

There’s a reason the Orion has cooling fins on the back: if it gets too hot, the charging current is reduced.

An XS is more compact and doesn’t get nearly as hot.

The downside is that it’s a lot more expensive, and the charging current may put too much load on the alternator.

That can be adjusted on the XS.

7

Your EBL has a second connection to the starter battery (starter battery for the fridge).

This connection not only powers the fridge, but also charges the starter battery and measures its voltage.

So installing your booster will have no effect whatsoever on charging the starter battery.

Using engine-off detection won’t be a problem for you. The EBL charges the starter battery to a maximum of 13.7 V, but the booster only starts at 13.8 V, so it only starts once the engine is actually running.

8

Yes, if you let the Orion switch on using engine-running detection.

The Orion can’t tell whether the voltage is rising because the engine is running or because an external charger is charging the starter battery.

9

Motor shutdown detection (not motor running detection) determines whether the motor is running based on the input voltage, not on the voltage increase. And as long as the set voltage is not exceeded, the booster will not switch on either.

10

Hello

Thanks everyone for the clarifications.

So, if I’ve understood correctly, I can set the engine-start detection voltage (in the app, I think…). For example, if I choose 10 A, the float voltage of the starter battery (6 A), when the vehicle is connected to 220 V, wouldn’t trigger the Orion to “wake up”? (I’m a novice at this.)

At the moment, the same wired connection (without a DC-DC) carries two currents (either recharging the leisure battery from the alternator in one direction, or float-charging the starter battery but in the opposite direction).

The float-charging current for the starter battery will take the reverse path to the DC-DC connection; that is, it will enter through the DC-DC output and leave through the input, then go to the starter battery. I know this isn’t how the Orion is intended to operate, but if this unusual path could work, it would get “a thorn out of my side”. So, in your opinion, is this technically possible?

That’s my concern.

11

You’re mixing a few things up: voltage is measured in volts, and charging current in amps.

You can’t adjust the charging current on a 12/12 18.

No maintenance current can be sent to the starter battery. I don’t know whether it’s possible, or whether the 12/12 18 can now also send an “emergency” charge to the starter battery, like the xs.

But that’s not a maintenance charge.

12

No, that isn’t the case with Schaudt EBLs!

As I already wrote, there’s a second cable connection to the starter battery for that.

Charging starter battery as well
Charging starter battery as well1144×820 156 KB

It’s the voltage, not the current, that starts the booster. You can leave the booster’s setting at 13.8V as it is.

13

Sorry, but the reason I say that the engine battery is currently being float-charged (vehicle stationary and connected to 220 V) via this shared line is that I plugged the vehicle into the mains, disconnected all the positive leads from the engine battery and checked which ones were receiving “power”. Only the alternator charging wire had a voltage of 12 V. The other five: nothing.

It’s true that the fridge was switched off, though. But… Still, I don’t think that makes any difference, because during the “winter storage” periods I put the vehicle on charge, and the vehicle battery charges even when the fridge is switched off.

Well …:roll_eyes:

Note: Apparently, the connection from the fridge to the engine battery shown in the diagram is actually a D+ (I say apparently because I’m not able to check, and that’s what I was told. True? False?).

14

Not really; the fridge needs the D+ signal to switch over to 12V when the engine is running. But that has nothing to do with your actual question.

Try this: check whether the starter battery voltage is displayed on the panel. Then disconnect the thick cable to the starter battery at the back of the EBL. If the voltage is still displayed, then you definitely have two connections to the starter battery, and you can safely connect the booster in between.

15

I’m happy to try, but if that were the case, when I: 1) disconnected all the positive terminals from the vehicle battery and 2) connected the vehicle to the 220 V mains, if your theory were correct, should I have had two live wires?

But there was only one (the 10 mm² one), which is supposed to be used for charging via the alternator.

What I can do, though, is disconnect this 10 mm² cable from the vehicle battery and see if I still have the starter battery voltage … Right?

Thanks for your patience.

16

That doesn’t make sense, since the two cables only run separately from the fuses onwards.

One more thing: since the isolating relay in the EBL is open, no current can flow to the starter battery through the thick cable.

Charging starter battery_isolating relay
Charging starter battery_isolating relay469×124 15.7 KB

17

When the vehicle is stationary and connected to the mains? Well… now I’m confused.

Because when all the wires arriving at: + Starter Batt. were connected, I had 12V on this cable. So what about that relay then???

Unless the wiring has been “tampered with” by the previous owner…

18

Perhaps this image explains the principle a little better, even though it’s from a different EBL. The additional charging takes place via the lower red cable, which is connected to EBL Block4 Pin3 on yours. Not via the upper one, which goes in at the back.

Electrical_Wiring_Diagram
Electrical_Wiring_Diagram1192×828 78.3 KB

19

Hello Hannus,

I’m getting back to you after trying something with the connection at the positive terminal of the engine battery, a photo of which I’ve attached.

  1. First of all, I connected the vehicle to 220V.

  2. I checked the voltage shown on my control panel: 13.2V.

3 ) I disconnected the 10mm2 cable from the battery (green arrow in the photo), which charges the habitation battery via the EBL from the alternator. Voltage reading on the control panel: 14.5V.

  1. I reconnected this cable and disconnected all the other wires one by one (except the two thick cables that go to the engine — same connection as the 10mm2 cable). The voltage was the same in every case: 13.2V.

All this leads me to think that only the 10mm2 cable provides charging and then float charging for the engine battery when connected to 220V.

That said, I’m not an electrician, which is why the diagram you kindly sent me earlier to illustrate your point is still a little “mysterious” to me… My conclusion is only a supposition.

20

One last try, then I’ll give up.

Two cables run from your EBL towards the starter battery. At the fuses, they are connected to each other and then run together via a single cable to the starter battery. That’s the cable you disconnect. So you can’t tell from that cable which of the two cables the voltage is coming through.

And as I already said, the thick cable at the back, through the switched-off split-charge relay, isn’t connected to the charger at all when stationary.