ESS integrating with SolarEdge - Questions

DIY
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1

Hi Community,

I am runing a 3-phase ESS with MP2 5000 and an SolarEdge Inverter.
The SE Inverter is connected to AC out so I read through the Victron/Solaredge instructions, but still have some open questions:

  1. Is K1 like in figure 5 and 6 the right Aux on the MP2?
    The figures are not 100% clear to me.
    And there are further open questions about the Voltage of the MP2 as @moacir wrote here:
    Multiplus II with SolarEdge integration application note may cause damage

  2. How to configure the AUX in VEconfig correctly?
    The documentation completely ignores the config of the Aux via VEconfig. So I am not sure how to configure K1. I only found two screenshot in the old Victron Community:

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3. Is the Sola Edge Energy Meter still needed?
From the documentation it seems so. But for what reason?
In Islandmode the MP2s do a frequency shift a switch the dry contacts so that the SE Inverter reduces it’s power. That is what I understood. What is the Solar Edge grid meter needed for?

I hope you guys will bring light in the darks.

Thanks so far
Sebastian

2

Please notice that, if you use the Multiplus II relay directly like it is in the documentation it will probably burn one of the other, the Multiplus II or the SolarEdge.

As I said in the other thread, Multiplus has a 12VDC power supply on its open collector and the SolarEdge board is a 5.VDC board. I got not clue about what could happens to them in case you close a 12VDC voltage to a board that should receive 5VDC.

If you want to use the Multiplus II relay you should consider using a physical relay or a optocoupler for galvanic isolation. Also, you may use the Cerbo relay if you have Cerbo GX on your system.

In my system I did the following:

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Notice the logic!

I wish I had already tested my system so I could you give you “real” feedback. So, do not take this configuration as workable!

Lets wait to see if some “expert” come into this hread and bring some light to both of us.

3

Hi, what do you want to achieve with the SolarEdge integration? There is really no need to configure APS on SolarEdge. Just make sure you have set the option to have AC coupled PV inverters and note the frequency bandwidth. Then set the SolarEdge as defined in the (old) manual but skip the APS part. Do check your SolarEdge frequency bandwidth and compare it to what you have set in VE.configure.
If al is setup, switch to off-grid and wait for your SolarEdge to come online again. It will charge the batteries. If you lower the charge Amps (by using DVCC) you will notice that the power of the SolarEdge inverter is reduced. This proves that frequency shifting is working and throttles uour PV inverter.

4

In off-grid (lets say the grid is down), then if there is excess of power from solar you must tell the inverter, SolarEdge or any other, to decrease production or even stop in case the batteries are charged as, since you have no grid, there is no place to send the power excess.

5

Hi Harold,
with the SE integration I want to achieve exactly what you described.
In case of an off-grid situation the SE inverter should come online again but with a power reduction via frequency shifting controlled bei the MPs.
But I understand that the APS is no longer needed and I only have to set the frequency bandwidth form the documentation. That are great news if this is the case.
So I can remove the the wiring to the MP AUX and I no longer need SE Energy Meter.
Thanks a lot for your input.
Sebastian

6

No, thats where frequency shifting is for. And it works with SolarEdge, Enphase and many others.

7

@Hhalewijn,
you may be right, but I can not agree with you as I just don’t know if you are really right. If you see me on a post feedback here this is because I got the response either by real life experience or documentation. When I am not sure, I clear state this.

In this SolarEdge document (page 10) it is clear stated that inverter will respond to frequency shifting when you enable it by connecting L1 to V on the SolarEdge Communication Board.

So, one of the other, Victron or SolarEdge, has a wrong documentation. Now, if you can not trust on documentation, how can you deploy solar systems?

8

I know, and thats why I sometimes instruct Victron to adapt their manuals.
However, I have installed hundreds of these systems and I think 70% of them have SolarEdge, the rest was Enphase. And with Solaredge, its both setapp as well as lcd type inverters. The Generator setting is meant to be used in situations where you want to use a diesel generator. These generators tend be slow on providing stable frequencies. But we are now talking about grid frequency which is stable, at least here in Europe. So perhaps the documentation should make that clear. I will point VE to that.

9

The victron systems do not control the solar edge via modbus like they do for fronius for zero feed in. That is stated in the manual.

Summary

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They are integrated meaning there is monitoring.

10

As far as I know, any grid-tied inverter must comply with local grid regulations. These standards define limits for output voltage, acceptable frequency deviations, reconnection timers (i.e., how long to wait before reconnecting after a grid failure), and other behaviors. To be certified for grid use in Europe, an inverter must strictly follow these rules.

According to SolarEdge documentation, when the inverter is set to “Alternative Power Source” (APS) mode, it relaxes some of these compliance rules as, if it is not in APS mode and proper grid conditions aren’t met, the inverter should shut down in case of grid compliance violations. The reason for relaxing these limits is that power sources like generators, or devices such as the Victron Multiplus II operating in off-grid mode, often present variable voltage and frequency depending on the load. Technically, such a generator or microgrid is not unlike a conventional power grid, but it doesn’t guarantee the same stability.

If you never intend to operate the SolarEdge inverter on its own (i.e., without the Multiplus II), you can simply jumper L1 to V on the SolarEdge communication board and allow the Multiplus II to act as the system’s voltage/frequency reference (“grid master”) as it will comply with the regulations while on grid and be able to control the SolarEdge should it be necessary.

However, in my setup, I have a switch that allows me to isolate the Multiplus II (e.g., for maintenance or upgrades) while keeping the SolarEdge inverter running. In such cases, you must remove the L1-V jumper. Otherwise, the SolarEdge inverter could remain active without a stable grid reference, potentially violating European regulations.

11

Hey Guys,

at first I will thank you for your input and the discussion.
But for me as a beginner your different statements are quiet confusing to me.

@Hhalewijn you experience is that frequency shifting is the only configuration that is needed to throttle the SolarEdge inverter in an off-grid situation and a battery soc nearly or at 100%. There is no need for a connection between the MP and the SE inverter.

I will test that over the Easter holidays. Is there anything to pay attention to?

Next statement:

@lxonline my goal is not to achieve zero feed in. My goal is to throttle the inverter in a specific situation as described above. In an of-grid situation the SE Energy Meter would have no effect in my point of view. Right?

@moacir I can’t quite understand your last answer. What is your solution after all the new inputs?

12

@smolit,
Sorry, but please take a look at your first question. Then tell us what is missing from the responses.

In summary, in Europe, any inverter must comply with European standards to be connected to the grid. In most European countries — including the one where I live — the inverter must comply with the EN50549-1:2019 standard.

An exception to this requirement applies when the inverter is not connected to the grid, such as during a grid outage, or when operating as part of an isolated system (e.g., a microgrid supported by batteries), like the one created by the Victron MultiPlus-II when it is in off-grid mode.

To bypass the EN50549-1:2019 standard’s restrictions, you must connect jumper L1 to V on the communications board of the SolarEdge inverter. Otherwise, it will not recognize that it is operating off-grid and will attempt to comply with the grid-tied standard.

If your SolarEdge inverter will always operate together with the MultiPlus-II (i.e., never independently), then — in my opinion (emphasis on opinion) — you could leave L1 connected to V permanently and forget about it. However, that is not my case. I may need the SolarEdge to operate without the MultiPlus (e.g., during maintenance or configuration changes). So, in my case, I must remove the L1-to-V jumper so that the SolarEdge returns to compliance with the EN50549-1:2019 standard when operating in grid-connected mode.

Automating the L1-to-V connection (i.e., switching it based on grid/off-grid status) is not straightforward, because the MultiPlus-II uses a 0–12V open-collector signal, while the SolarEdge communication board expects a 0–5V input.

Again, I may be wrong. However, everything I’m describing is referenced in the documentation — except for the EN50549-1:2019 standard itself, which I cannot share publicly.

13

I kindly ask the community to correct me I case I am stating anything wrong above.

Thank you!

14

Correct.

The thing is you also mention ESS which is an assistant for running on grid. PV assistant is used offgrid.

The frequency control will work offgrid, if the solar edge is programmed to and responds to frequency shifting.

15

@moacir ,
Thank you for the detailed explanantion. I’m running a very similiar setup and I’m wondering if there are risks associated with not connecting the jumper L1 to V on the Solaredge hybrid inverter.

As I see it, this would just cause the Solaredge inverter to try to comply with gried-tied standard. As my Solaredge is connected to AC OUT 1, frequncy shifting is enabled and Solaredge is set to APS mode this should be ok even without a jumper or a relay?

Thanks!

16

Another long post… In another post above I mentioned:

In this mentioned document on page 1 is also mentioned:

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So, the SolarEdge should only extend its voltage and frequency operating range when in APS mode. The Multiplus II uses frequency shifting to reduce, and even to stop, the SolarEdge production by shifting the frequency above the defined standard limits. If the SolarEdge is not in APS mode, it will not accept such frequency shifting and probably shutdown.

To enable APS mode, so Multiplus II can really control the SolarEdge production, you must jumper L1 to V when the grid is down and this can be automatically done by any relay or optocouple controlled by the Multiplus II.

For obvious reasons I never tested it, but I think you will burn one of the other, Multiplus II or SolarEdge, if you use the Multiplus II K1 to do this as K1 is not a relay but a open collector transistor on a 12V power supply and the SolarEdge communication board is powered by a 5V power supply. Also, connecting the two equipment with no galvanic isolation is not a good idea for several reasons, out of scope here.

Being always in APS mode is not a problem as Multiplus II will follow the grid when on-grid and, when off-grid, will be the one generating the AC reference, so in control of the micro-grid it creates.

The problem is that in my system I can bypass the Multiplus II and let the SolarEdge running connected directly to the grid. In this case, I can not just jumper L1 to V. I must be able to open the L1 to V connection whenever I have only SolarEdge producing as it must comply with the EN50549-1:2019 and it does not when in APC mode.

17

You left out this sentence from the introduction:
This document describes how to configure a SolarEdge inverter for simultaneous operation with a generator
Are you using a generator? If not, you should just ignore that document and forget about the L1 to V jumper. If the SolarEdge is not in APS mode, it will still support throttling by frequency shifting, using the configured frequency range.

18

To be honest, I don’t know why I am “fighting” here :rofl:…

The original Victron application note states you must activate APS on SolarEdge.

Maybe you did not read the entire document, but the SolarEdge document clear states:

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They use the term “generator” as a source of power and this includes micro-grids like the one created by Multiplus II.

There is nothing wrong if you do not activate APS. I guess (please notice “I guess”) SolarEdge will just turn of if the frequency variation is above the limit defined in EN50549-1:2019 standard, otherwise they wouldn’t need to create/define an APS mode. I insist, in my case I want the Multiplus to control (not turn off) the PV power generation and be able to comply with the European regulations in case SolarEdge is running while Multiplus is being bypassed.

19

Ok guys, i was brave today and spontaneously disconnected my system from the grid. Everything went verry smooth.
My SE inverter kept producing and when the battery SOC reaches 90% I saw that the MPs shifted the frequency step by step to 51.5Hz and the SE inverter was also throttling its power and went off.
So my original questions are answered:

  1. I don’t need to wire the SE inverter to the AUX of the MP.
  2. I don’t have to configure an AUX switch.
  3. The SE energy meter isn’t needed in my use case.

Thanks @all for your help.
Sebastian

20

Great news!

Now, for how long you let the system off-grid? Why? Because I would expect that the SE would turn off as the frequency goes above 51.5Hz; then the Multiplus would return to the standard 50Hz; as a result the SE would start again promoting a stop/start all the time.