3 phase MP 6k5 in the netherlands

Hi,

I’m looking at investing in 3x 6k5 with 3x 15kwh battery. I looked at certification for MPII 48/8000 for the Dutch market and as far as I could find it requires external net monitor and transfer switch to be certified for connection to the Dutch net. Would this be the case for the 6k5 as well? Is the 6k5 still transformer based and is there any info about noise levels? When is certification for the Dutch market expected? Alternatively is 3-phase for the Multi RS solar 6000 expected anytime soon?

Expected to order in nov/dec and install in jan.

Hope some answers are available within the next few months but maybe someone has more in depth knowledge on the new models that can shed some light already.

Best regards,

Milo

Sorry to hijack the thread but when Victron responds. Could you also say when it’s likely to be certified for the UK grid too please?

The 6k5 is still transformer based though @mkusmic. I know that much.

It’s a MultiPlus → with transformer.
Without transformer it would be a Multi RS.

The certification is done by an external institution and Victron can’t tell how long it will take or make it faster.
Only thing you can do is to check the certificates regularly.

As far as I know the Multi RS 48/6000 already can be used in 3 phase but you need to use the Victron VM-3P75CT as grid meter.

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Guys, there is rumor that Victron went cheap on 4k5 and 6k5 models and used aluminium wires in the transformer! I’ve checked and compared MP II 48/5000 and MP II 48/6k5 units - they weight the same 29 kg while the latter one is slightly bigger enclosure. WTF?!

Ik denk dat u de 5000VA met de 4k5 moet vergelijken en de 6k5 met de 8000VA. Verder benieuwd naar de afweging voor het materiaalgebruik. Werken deze trafos op 50hz of wordt er op hoge frequentie gewerkt?

4k5 and 6k5 are the same technology - trafos @50 Hz (i think you can set it to 60 Hz as well). Those units are low frequency units, old, good, proven and suppose to be highly immune to overload spikes. However! If Victron went cheap then this legendary reliability is over. It will heat more, efficiency probably worse. Yyeah yeah, what if they increased wire size to compensate for different materials? Still CHEAP approach and not looking good. The price went up, worse materials. Still waiting for somebody from Victron to confirm the materials. Why they are sitting quiet?

They are not, you can look up efficiency in the datasheets on their website. The difference between these models and the older models is explained for example in this video. The prices are in line with previous models as per the victron price list. The old models will remain available if you prefer them.

Well, in the video 2:26: “it’s lighter and it’s cheaper”… So that is why 6k5 is way more expensive compared to 5000:) I couldn’t find it on the official website, couldn’t find it in manual. That is why i calim the are sitting quiet. Why one should scroll the some random channels videos on youtube to find it out? First thing is checking manofacturer website. If it’s there on Victron website then i couldn’t find it. Simple as that. What’s funny - looks like people forgot why copper is superior to aluminium it terms of electrical properties:) ahhh i forgot - i can only speak good thing about beloved Victron. Sorry.

Again you compare 5000VA model to 6k5 model while it is 5000VA (4000W continuous at 25 degrees) compared to 4k5 (4000W continuous at 25 degrees) and 8000VA (6400W) compared to 6k5 (6400W) i think.

Why should every detail about the products be published everywhere? Have you contacted your supplier or victron directly? Did they refuse to answer?

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. There are plenty of criticisms to make on many of their products. I don’t believe the cons outweigh the pros on the copper vs aluminium argument. We’ll see what the future brings.

They did say that using lighter CCA windings meant they could use a physically bigger transformer and still keep the product weight sensible (see the 48/20000) – probably with a bigger core to reduce core losses and thicker CCA winding to keep resistive loss down. The transformer will end up physically bigger than a copper-wound one but lighter, and presumably also cheaper. Maybe having more weight allocated to the core reduces core loss (which is buried so hard to cool) and CCA increases winding loss (outside so easier to cool), then the bigger transformer has the same loss but is also easier to cool? (bigger area)

so many Al lovers:) I think at the first place was to cheapish the production by taking way cheaper material and as a consequence of visibly worse conductivity they had to increase dimensions here and there and then Sales Reps guys came in and said “hey we will call it aluminium technology so nobody spot the fact that we cut the corners and we can even easily rise the prices”.

“They did say that using lighter CCA windings meant they could use a physically bigger transformer” - what about the transformer size had to be increased BECAUSE they used CCA?:D:D Not the way around.

Maybe you should go and do some reading up on electronics in general and transformer design in particular – or failing that, read what I posted again… :wink:

I have not seen victron marketing “aluminium technology”, in fact i even seem to recall someone complaining that they were too silent on the matter.

As for the pricing, maybe prices are different in your region but for me they are like this;

multi 3000 - 2400W@25°C - €624 = €0,26/W

multi 5000 - 4000W@25°C - €889 = €0,22/W

multi 4K5 - 4000W@25°C - €769 = €0,19/W

multi 6k5 - 6000W@25°C - €1086 = €0,18/W

multi 8000 - 6400W@25°C - €1633 = €0,25/W

The newer models are clearly cheaper, this combined with the higher efficiency and lower weight makes them an excellent addition to the portfolio.

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Ian Dedic, ask any manofacturer why whey switch from copper to aluminum in windings. The answer is not because it is better electric wise, it’s because it is cheaper. It is also presenting some challenges and they need to put effort to counteract those challenges. One of this would be change in core size, wire cross sections, etc. But all these is only the consequence of the primary decision to go cheap. Not the way around. If Victron had done the opposite, everyone would have been singing with delight at how fantastically they had improved the design :slight_smile: :slight_smile: I’m not going to fight with victron fan boys. My whole system (apart from batteries) is Victron based, i like it but it has nothing do to when it comes to the fact that going “aluminum technology” ( just citing Victron expert from the above mentioned video :slight_smile: ) is not to save weight or to make the design better. It is to make it cheaper!

@mac - have you compared internals of 8000 model with the smaller ones? Is it valid to compare heavy tank with light armored vehicle? Have you seen cheapish, thin DC connectors on 6k5 and compared with heavy duty on 80000 model? They carry almost the same current.

Let’s ask some real transformers vendor, i.e. ELSCO what they sa on their website about alu vs copper transformers:

Citation from https://elscotransformers.com/

Differences Between Copper and Aluminum Transformer Windings

While most low and medium voltage dry type transformers rely on aluminum windings for energy transfer, many engineers and plant operators prefer copper windings for specific applications. Here are some of the primary differences between the two types:

Initial Costs

At the outset, aluminum windings are generally less expensive than copper transformer windings because the material itself is relatively cheap to produce. Moreover, aluminum’s price has proven to remain stable over long periods — translating to cheaper windings.

Copper’s initial costs have historically been more volatile than those of aluminum. Still, even though copper windings tend to be slightly more expensive, many experts believe this type offers more long-term benefits than its aluminum counterpart.

Operating Costs

Aluminum windings usually take up a larger cross-sectional area of dry type transformers than copper options. The more expansive design of the aluminum windings produces a lower current density, resulting in a lower rate of heat loss and saving more energy when compared to older-model copper wound transformers.

Copper transformer windings usually feature tighter coils that can also be optimized for lower current density. In modern designs, thanks to advancements that allow for reduced copper winding heat loss, copper windings often outrank aluminum windings in their long-term operational cost-effectiveness.

Reliability

While both copper and aluminum windings provide the same general functions for low and medium voltage transformers, copper outranks aluminum when it comes to reliability. Aluminum has only 62% of the electrical conductivity of copper, making copper a much more effective conductor.

Proper insulation can ensure that the energy loss factors for each type stay equivalent. Heat loss also depends on the size of the windings — and aluminum can easily be sized to compensate for this issue. Nevertheless, copper generally provides more long-term reliability due to its physical strength and resistance to deformation.

Operating Life

If copper and aluminum windings are properly installed and cared for, their operating lives should be nearly equal. One drawback of aluminum is that it’s typically more difficult to install than copper, which sometimes results in preventable operational issues.

Although modern design improvements have let transformer experts navigate the technical problems associated with aluminum, copper is typically a superior option for protection against fault current stresses and overall longevity.

When to Choose Copper or Aluminum Transformer Windings

While both materials are common, many operations prefer copper because of its improved quality and performance. Copper’s superior conductivity, mechanical strength and resistance to deformation make it the preferred choice for installations where reliability and longevity are critical. Although the initial investment may be higher, many find that copper’s long-term benefits outweigh its premium price.

Copper windings are typically ideal for:

  • Critical operations where reliability is paramount, including hospitals, data centers and manufacturing plants.

  • Applications with frequent overloading or high ambient temperatures.

  • Environments with vibration or mechanical stress, where copper’s resilience provides a longer service life.

  • Industrial applications with harsh operating conditions.

Aluminum windings often work well for:

  • Budget-conscious projects where initial cost is a primary consideration.

  • Applications where weight is a significant factor, as aluminum is approximately one-third the weight of copper.

  • Standard-duty applications with stable, predictable loads.

At ELSCO Transformers, our engineering team can analyze your needs — including load profile, environmental factors, space constraints and budget considerations — to recommend the optimal winding material for your application.”

Whether the new models will prove to be as reliable as the good old series remains to be seen. For now, there’s no point in telling stories about aluminum being better, because it’s never been better than copper.

No. Have you? What differences did you find? Always interested in learning something.

Are you referring to the single vs double M8 battery connections? If so i personally don’t see a problem with that.

It is good practice to test the installation under load and check connections for temperature and voltage drop. If the single M8 is a problem (which i doubt) professionals will stop installing them.

for example 41 kg vs 29 kg:) 8000 is 29 W self consumption, 6k5 is 28W, double DC cables and way bigger DC cable cross section recommendation than for 6k5 but those two are handling pretty similar current as their wattage is pretty similar. Again - i’m not going to fight with fanboys. I came here to ask for confirmation that Victron went cheap because i couldn’t find it on their official website. In the meantime i’ve learnt i have to look for important information on youtube videos on some non-victron hosted channels and that changing the most important element in the inverter from solid copper to cheap aluminum is now called “Aluminum Technology”. Again - imagine the other way around: Victron is going from alu trafos to copper - there would be plenty fanboys teaching how fantastic improvement we can now observe in inverter technology:D:D Next move will maybe be wooden enclosure and fanboys will say “we’re fine, after all wood is eco friendly, lighter and cheaper”:stuck_out_tongue: Get my point? I don’t care actually if you get it. Don’t be offended though. That was not my intention.

At least if the inverters were made with aluminum casings, the vibrations and noises would have stopped as well…
Now that would have been an improvement!
And the weight would have been even smaller.

I’m not offended, i’m annoyed at all these conclusions being made without substantial evidence.

You can check the price list on the official website and see, they are cheap. Questions about why they are cheap should be directed at your distributer or victron directly, here you will only get speculation.

Maybe the k-series are bad inverters, time will tell. For now i see no reason not to install them. And for those who don’t trust the new models the old ones are available.