Replacement For Delios Inverter and expansion

Q&A and troubleshooting
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1

My Delios inverter has died. Company in receivership and hosting sowtware company has withdrawn service. System is DC coupled 6kw ground array BMZ ESS X. battery. Victron came up on an Ai search as being a good match for the battery and Mutiplus 11 and quatro inverters were mentioed. My Delios was an all in unit preset up for BMZ battery, all I had to do was wire it up connnect to a meter and internet. My excursions into finding more about Victron has made me rather confused and can see there is quite a learning curve ahead of me. In particular I can see that victron is very versatile with bits and pieces that need to be added to a basic inverter/charger. So I would like to keep the battery add another one (not BMZ), be able to programme the set up to charge batery from grid at night tarrif, have system switch to battery when grid goes down without noticeable delay, be able to connect a generator in event of long outages and no solar, and maybe in the future add a small wind turbine . Would like a display at the inverter and phone app to see what going on and make chanes to the system. So could do with with some suggestions on how to put together the kit i.e schematic and component suggestions. Have asked similar question to Victon themselves before I learnt of this forum.

Thank you

2

What KVa was it?

Victrons all in one is the Multi RS. It takes 6kw of solar on two trackers. Fully Programmable over Bluetooth with your phone.

What is the nominal Voltage? 24v 48v 51.2v? Hopefully 48v and above otherwise the RS i mentioned above is not an option.

Usually not recommended unless they have exactly the same charge voltages for absorption and float.

This is doable with ESS and a feature called scheduled charge. You will need a GX for this though.

Ths can be done easily. If you want the system to totally manage it then get a quattro. If you are not allergic to a Manual changeover then a MP2 will do or a Multi RS if your last inverter was around 5/6kVa.

The usual method is a local installer or dealership. They are trained to be the local support. And yes as you saw its needed as it is a huge learning curve. It is possible to get some basic online training from victron professional - it is free. And they have a fully loaded you tube channel.

There are example schematics at the bottom of all the product pages.

Fully possible and over the internet as well with the GX.

3

Thank you great information there . The BMZ is 51v its fully charged at just under 62. I thought that I would not be able to combine the BMZ with other battteries but not given a reason intil now which is a nice learning

4

I am now consdiering a replacement using a Victron 5kva Multiplus II Inverter Charger. I have looked at specs etc to see if my current wiring is compatible.
Looking at the manual and specs I presume that AC out 1 is the main supply back to the CU.

And AC out 2 is the back up loads when the grid goes down and has switched over to battery.

So In event of grid going down AC 1 will have no power as I guess the switching between the 2 supplies will occur in the inverter.

So in that case why cannot the AC1 cables out, be connected to AC2 with external bridging of supply. After all the grid is dead.

Reason I ask is, I only have a 4 core cable connnecting the inverter to the house and unless there is something going on in the inverter I do not see any need for an extra cable (which will be difficult) for the AC2 out when the AC 1 cable is redundant.

My current dead inverter was arranged like that .

I canot find a wiring diagram that gives me a relevant overview . [1] I wanted to attach a diagram to explain the above how do I do that

  1. Footnotes ↩︎

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Obviously you need an in and an out. One for grid connect and charge and one for loads.

There are two ac outs, one is programmable on load or battery soc the other one - ac1 out- is always on (unless your battery is dead. ;). If you have no need for load shedding then acin and ac1 out just need to be connected.
You would ideally need an earth as well as your 4 core. There is an earth neutral bond relay in the inverter. And safety reasons.

The AC wiring is covered here in the installation section of the manual.

The block diagram is useful.

Uploads can be done with the icon near the bottom right. Hand drawn works well.

Summary

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6

Many thanks for that. Have read part of the manual and i realise I have been making the mistake that all inverters work in a similar way.

So if I can give part of my understanding you can tell me If that is correct.

The AC 1 is the output regardless if there is a grid outage or and the switching goes over to battery as the sources.

AC 2 is for an auxiliary load that disconnects during grid outage and reverting to battery/ inverter to avoid unnecessary drain on battery.

So I do not see a need for me to have that AC2 if that is the case, for moment anyway.

The way Delios worked was that the critical loads (CL) had a separate CU and was connected to the inverter out, but was separate to the the other CU, and so when on battery supply the inverter/battery just powered the CL. CU . The inverter in normal operation was capable of 32A but only 20A to the CL.

So in the Victron setup does “no break loads” have a separate CU a schematic would infer that but I find it ambiguous when I read the text in the description.

I would have found it useful if where the connecting line meets the component that the point would be labelled with what’s on the component.

7

Same same…but different :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
Different terminology i guess. Yeah, it is a bit of a learning curve when switching brands.

The inverter can pass through 50A and invert (5000VA -not watts- ÷ mains voltage at 25°C) so about 17A. You can see from the tech specs.

Correct.

Correct. The auxiliary on MP2 5kVa (or ac out 2 can switch 32amps)

8

Thank you,

Apologies for not getting back sooner.

Great that confirms I am ok with the current AC feeds.

(If I need the AC2 in future I think may be able to get an appropriate cable through the duct)

I am wondering if I can start again as I am not sure now that I have the right spec,

I have 6kW of solar panels, is the inverter I am considering man enough as I believed you can underrate.

My current inverter output nominal current is 26A is that the same parameter that you quote being able to invert?

Does the Victron work the way I am used to seeing as have made some assumptions so far.

Best if I quote an example.

On a load say using a shower 9kW, solar delivering 2kw then battery would give 5kw and grid 2kW.

So it was solar 1st, battery 2nd and grid 3rd in terms of power demand.

I am wondering if best to go back to the beginning as to what gear I need, and if Victron can actually give what I had before, could get more, like UPS.

I earmarked Victron as it is one of only a couple of makes that are compatible with BMZ battery which I do not want to replace for moment.

Because my Delios was an all in inverter I need to put together all the bits for a system that will do what I want.

A supplier recommended a 5kVA inverter charger but could not find data sheet for that but looking at other sheets 6kVA may be more suitable.

I just do not know.

So my spec is

Currently got 6kW solar panels It is in 2 strings currently (4kW and 2kw requirement of the Delios think it was to manage cloud edge effect) but easily put back to 2 x 3

10kW BMZ ESS x battery.

Want to be able to charge battery from grid when I want and export when I want.

I have DNO permission to export 5kW so need to be able to retain that capability.

Need to know what is going on, so display and remote monitoring/setting via app/ PC access to historical data

Would like to be able to connect a small turbine 1 to2 kW in the future and a generator to charge battery if we have long periods of outages.

I will want at some point to change the battery for a bigger pack say 20 to 30 kW as funds and time allows but I expect will be ok there?

(To allow for a bigger battery guess I I need to allow for a higher charge rate from the charger?)

So what components do you reckon I need and is there an appropriate schematic and wiring drawing out there in the Victron database.

There are so many it is difficult to know where to start.

Think I should have asked this question 1st.

Hope this is not too much of an ask, confusing at moment but then as is said, confusion always comes before understanding.

Thanks again

Kind regards

Dafydd

9

You will need a separate mppt for this if you are considering the multiplus 2 5kVa. Unless you get the easy solar which has a 250/100 in it. (Voltage open circuit max is 250v at min temperature) They would ideally be set up in symmetrical strings.

Easy enough with a GX (also separate) unless you are buying an wasy solar.

There are a few at the bottom of the multiplus product page not sure what would be appropriate for your set up.

The difference between the two is digestion of information.

The inverter can charge with max 70A x batt voltage.

So really you would need to work out if you have the time in your cheap period to fully recharge if you are fully discharging it before. Or you could adjust your depth of discharge to allow for a full recharge. Ther is aof course if you are discharging then of solar and grid combined can recharge.

There are several ways to schedule charge and discharge in an ESS system.

10

Thanks again.

I think I am getting there been looking at Victron You tube videos seem to be a lot from the USA.

Further query if I may, I could only see one set of terminals for the battery on both the MPPT charger and the Multiplus -11.

So are the junction paralleled on a bus bar or bridged across so that battery gets solar sourced charge and grid/inverter sourced charge.

I found on the Victron website a “wizard” to calculate the required MPPT came up as the 450/100 one.

On a load say using a shower 9kW, solar delivering 2kw then battery would give 5kw and grid 2kW.

So is it was solar 1st, battery 2nd and grid 3rd in terms of power demand.

Kind regards

Dafydd

11

That may possibly be because of the voltage open circuit and you have two different strings. Its a workshorse of an mppt though.

Yes. A single terminal.

Usually the use of a bus bar for all the connections for the DC for all the sources is recommended. It allows upgrades/ alterations or expansion later as well. (Particularly if you look at the Lynx system.)
I have seen lug stacking on the inverter terminals, i can’t say i am a fan for a number of reasons I don’t really want to get into right now.

There is also fusing to consider for all of it. The manuals have cabling and fusing recommendations.

I guess you don’t have grid outages. I would normally size the inverter to be able to run the whole load.
But yes ESS will allow power assist from the battery (above the min soc you set) and solar will contribute of it is available.

12

Thanks for all that info very valuable stuff and much appreciated. Still getting my head around it all. Been quite a learning, currently probably going to go for the Multiplus 11 8kVA, a 450/200 MPPT, Lynk distributor, Cerbo GX and touch screen. Got a good idea now of the wiring and have drawn a layout given the sizes in the specs. In doing, noted the spacing between components, and being sensitised to that noticed in a lot of the videos I have watched, the required spacing is not adhered to. Where I am a bit stuck at the moment is the sizing of the connecting cables my proposed supplier has chucked a spanner in my knowledge as a 300 A fuse in the Lynk to protect a 50mm cable from the inverter with a claim that the 50 mm2 rated at 345A. I have to bow to their considerable knowledge base but I do not understand as it does not fit the electrical equations for either AC, which I am comfortable with, DC less so. When I come to make up the cables I want to ferrule the ends as I do with AC cables but my crimping tools go nowhere near the size of that required for inverter and battery requirement. Anyone know of a source of DC cables and crimping tools.

13

Pet peev of mine. And also not using the minimum at least cable size required. The 2-5m length is the return length…

The 8kVa uses 2x50mm or 2x70mm² cable with a 300A fuse… (So 2x150A fuses)
Manuals have it all.. I personally always use the larger cable size. And have never had issues in the installs.

It is going to be a nicely sized install.

14

Thank you,

Whilst I looked briefly for stuff in the manual I did not go as far as the connection.

(For some reason the link I used took me to the Australian version of the manual so I did not delve deeply into it. I have saved a copy now from your link)

What you say makes sense because I was told that it was 300A fuse for each cable 600A total which would not have protected a 50mm2 cable with a rating of about 170A.

Which is why I questioned it.

It is clear in the manual as you say.

I think I can order the stuff now, the cable sizing was bothering me as it just did not make sense. Having 2 must be due to potential peaks but I am happy now as the fusing is correct.

I have found a link on line for cables made up to size but I was wondering whether welding rated cable could be used as a backup?

Dafydd

15

Its fine. It has the double insulation needed for tha application and the fine strands.

The amount of cable is for a number of reasons besides peak. The big transformer in there is one and the way it does power assist as well. And the way it performs its overload shut down (not necessarily for big loads but for short circuit protection etc.) it is well worth putting them in.

16

Thanks again,

It is good to get the underpinning knowledge of the activity/process one is undertaking.

I had another Q which I have just remembered I have not asked.

My previous inverter (6kW ) was g100 compliant and initially locked at 3.68 for export purposes.

I then had the go ahead from the DNO to export 5kW so that was changed via the inverter software.

The Victron is G99 compliant does that affect my situation.?

Reading the ins and outs of the G98 99 100 system I read that g100 is for bigger installs but I am not sure if I am ok or not.

Dafydd.

17

I have no idea about the GXX regulations.

The 8kVa is technically 6400watts (see its datasheet) so it is close to your other inverter in ‘size’ if you look at the datasheet. Not sure of ttgat information helps or not. In anycase on the GX itself it is possible to limit export. Also don’t know if that meets regs or if it has to be gard coded.

18

Thanks again,

I did not think to Ai the Question. But have now

Answer since I last enquired about 5 years ago, the G99 has become more stringent that the G100.

So as it is G99 I should be ok.

I can restrict to the 5kW to comply.

Dafydd

19

I have now opted for the MPPT 450/100 it is about half the price of the 450/200and do not foresee expanding the number of panels in near future, In making sure I have all the necessary bits I wanted to query the inverter supply protection. The manual states a type A RCD. It would be more convenient for me to replace the current MCB I have for the old inverter that did not need an RCD with an RCBO, which from what I can make out from other sources should be a C curve breaker. But maybe the Victron is ok with a type B curve. Any views.

Many thanks

Dafydd

20

Hi there, I used to have the Delios ES 4.5KW until about a year ago.It broke my heart,because it was a fantastic machine and with the domotic platine to switch relays ,it covered everything you needed.Unfortunately service was never their strong point and the production was eventually moved to eastern europe.

So I had the dilemma and eventually went for the Victron Multi RS double MPPT,as it fitted best.With the cerbo and node red I got at least a couple of relays to swich a hot water heater.As I’m on off grid,this machine works fine for me,as originally designed as an off grid inverter.I didn’t (at the end) regret the choice,because the efficiency is higher,than the Delios was.From the noise-level I would say thei’re equal,with victron a regular fan sound,while the Delios had some noice especially when power was quickly reduced…..The thing I love with Victron is,that You can easily add equipment,and the firmware versions can easily via cerbo gx installed and even rolled back(to older firmware versions).Best regards Frank