MPPT RS 450/100 issue HQ2216-HQ2236 - clarification please?

Q&A and troubleshooting
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Hi all,

There is a discussion on the old Victron Community site that has caused some confusion regarding the scope of the issue described in the Victron Tech Note issued in July 2023 (MPPT RS 450/100 issue HQ2216-HQ2236 - Victron Professional):

https://communityarchive.victronenergy.com/questions/127958/error-code-200-on-mppt-rs450100.html

Specifically, this part of the conversation in that previous thread where @Raphael and @guystewart responded to nhuillard’s concerns:

[nhuillard ]· Dec 12 2023 at 9:46 AM

HI! I just noticed this document (as a customer), and contacted my dealer. He says my Multi RS 48/6000/100-450/80 (single tracker) can be replaced (HQ2226), but after re-reading the document, it only talks about the MPPT RS 100A.

Can you confirm if other RS devices have the same issue ?

The device is off-grid in the wild, and I’d rather replace it before it fails. It’s been operating since a bit more than one month.

[raphael ] · Dec 12 2023 at 9:52 AM

Victron also offers extenden warranty for those units. So if you have bad luck and it fails within 10 years, they will swap it out for no cost.

[Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) :diamonds::diamonds:] · Dec 19 2023 at 7:06 AM

Hi [nhuillard],

That conversation is really best and only possible between yourself, your dealer, and the Victron repairs dept.

Sorry I can’t be more specific.

@Raphael and @guystewart both seem to be implying that the issue described in the Tech Note is NOT limited to the MPPT RS 450/100 but also affects other RS products during the specified date range (specifically the Multi RS).

I purchased several Inverter RS Smart Solar devices whose batch numbers fall within the specified range in the Tech Note, from a dealer who is (with the benefit of hindsight) not the greatest at providing reliable customer support and I therefore don’t necessarily trust them to give me the true story here.

Please @guystewart could you confirm whether this issue ONLY affects the MPPT RS 450/100 (as stated in the Tech Note), or whether it does in fact also affect the Multi RS and/or Inverter RS Smart Solar manufactured during a similar period?

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The SmartSolar e.g. MPPT RS 450/100-Tr SKU SCC145110510 models are the products referred to and not the Multi RS Solar 48/6000/100-450/100 SHU PMR482602020. Very different products and the service note is also very clear which it applies to. MPPT RS 450/100 issue HQ2216-HQ2236 - Victron Professional The serial numbers part you refer to are only used to determine the dates of manufacture for those products with a potential problem.

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Yes, the Tech Note is very clear - that is obvious.

However, as shown in the quoted thread from the old Community site, both @Raphael and @guystewart muddied the waters somewhat by suggesting that the issue is wider in scope than the Tech Note suggests.

@Raphael explicitly stated that the Multi RS is also covered by the warranty extension described in the Tech Note and @guystewart implied his agreement with this assertion by not correcting @Raphael and instead suggesting that the customer speak to his dealer.

I would really like some clarification from @guystewart or another Victron staff member as to what exactly the previous discussion quoted above was referring to and specifically whether there is any issue with the Inverter RS Smart Solar manufactured during a similar period, or not.

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The error is about DC bus voltage.
That part of the hardware schematic is (almost) the same in MPPTs and Multi RS.
The same DC/DC bidirectional converter. Also (almost) the same MPPT to DC bus electronics.
So not an abnormal thing from his part to consider that they may be plagued by the same thing.

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Not personally seen any Multi RS reports and they were not ‘plagued’. Not a single one I sold had shown signs of problems to date. Best to get in touch with the dealer / distributor who should have insights. I have certainly not been alerted of any by Victron.

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Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, the particular distributor in question has proven to be somewhat unreliable and has (since these inverters were purchased) given me multiple reasons not to trust them to make any effort to do the right thing by their customers. They have proven to be very willing to try passing the buck onto their installer customers when they think they can get away with it.

I really do not understand why, if it was as clear cut as the Tech Note suggests @guystewart chose to be so ambiguous? Clear, consistent, transparent communication direct from Victron staff would instill a lot more confidence in the brand than vague and ambiguous “discuss it with your dealer” type comments. There really shouldn’t be any need for vagueness here.

If Victron currently believe the issue only applies to one RS product (MPPT RS 450/100) but they’re not 100% certain it does not also apply to the others then they should come out and say this and should be asking us to report any issues with any other RS products Victron are not 100% certain are unaffected.

@guystewart - again - please can you clarify whether (as @Raphael previously suggested) the extended 10 year warranty and/or free replacement offer also applies to either the Multi RS or the Inverter RS Smart Solar from this manufacturing period, or ONLY the MPPT RS 450/100 as stated in the Tech Note?

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I also would be interested in this topic, because 1 month ago we installed an Inverter RS 48/6000 which stopped working… I’m curios if it is related to this, or only bad luck.

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I have had an inverter RS for years without an issue. @Wanek. If it affected the Inverter RS the document would state so.

@SES
The discuss it with your dealer is so that the proper channels are used for information and records. The other official way for support is outline in the community guidelines.
The document is clear what product is affected. There is no more to discuss here about it.

Request support here. This forum is not the right channel.

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@LX - the problem I have with your reply is that it was a senior Victron manager (@guystewart) who created this ambiguity ON the Victron Community forum. Yes the Tech Note document is clear regarding one product that is definitely affected. However, subsequent to the release of that document @guystewart and Raphael have strongly implied ON the Victron Community forum that the Tech Note is NOT as complete or as black-and-white as it appears.

Why all the secrecy and ambiguity? Why is Victron not just being completely open and transparent with installers and customers directly?

Thank you for posting the link to the Community Guidelines.

In double checking I hadn’t missed something, it turns out there IS a VERY important sentence in there that I had missed. This is the one providing a link to the Regional Sales Manager contact details as a means of escalating issues experienced with dealers. I was unaware this was available and have felt (very!) frustrated for quite a while now because it seemed there was an utterly impenetrable wall between Victron and their installers (as well as end users). At least now I know there is some form of communication channel when required.

I will give the dealer one last chance and then try the revelent regional sales manager and see how that goes…

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The document (and article) is a transparent statement. It was a component problem. I do know that there was actually a very small percentage of units that seemed to have the problem (like under 5%). The statement was issued anyway and two options were open - leave it and it has a 10 year warranty - or have it replaced.
If you understand production lines then will know that while the design of the RS line is similar they are not made on the same conveyor at the same time so to speak. So just will have affected a certain batch (Which is named). It is not a design problem but a production one.

If you ever attend a training or webinar you will see that Victron have a small number of employees. They train and support the distribution network which goes right down to installer level. (Who then hopefully act like adults and behave in a responsible manner).
I hear your frustration though. I do hope you conclude with a good resolution with the contacts you have found.

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I have ‘attended’ many webinars and completed all the Victron Professional training revelant to the Victron products I work with and install. Face-to-face training is a different matter due to location and time availability. I do very much hope your (slightly baffling and unnecessary?) comment about hoping installers ‘act like adults’ wasn’t directed at me.

Your explanation of production lines etc is missing the whole point I have repeatedly raised here (as well as making significant assumptions about your audience).

I will digress for one moment to point out the flaw in your production line explanation - this is, however, entirely tangential to the topic of this current forum discussion.

You seem to have failed to grasp that different product designs (especially similar ones) can and often do share some identical components. Just because a specific component demonstrates a higher than acceptable failure rate in one product design does not necessarily mean it is due to a fundamental flaw in that specific component and instead it may well be that one particular product design forces that specific component to operate closer to its functional limits than a similar but distinct product design that shares this same component.

It can take quite a lot of testing to determine whether one product design variant is inadvertantly pushing a perfectly functional, in-spec component outside its design limits, or whether there is actually a manufacturing defect (or datasheet error) for that component which was the source of the issue. In this case - unless you are actually a Victron engineer who has done this testing, or have confidential access to conversations with that team then neither you nor I can possibly know which of the two it is. It is entirely possible that Victron themselves are not 100% certain either and that this is the source of the current ambiguity.

Back to the topic at hand…

The Tech Note states categorically that the problem ONLY applies to one single product… @Raphael then flat-out contradicts this by stating that the extended 10 year warranty option ALSO applies to the Multi RS. @guystewart then immediately replies to this very comment chain adding significant (Victron actual employee) weight to Raphael’s statement by suggesting the OP discusses the matter (of the ten year extended warranty option) for their Multi RS with their dealer.

If what you state is actually true - ie the issue really does only apply to one single product, as stated in the Tech Note, why on Earth would the Victron Community Manager say this and not simply state at this point in the conversation that the OP AND Raphael have got the wrong end of the stick, refer the OP back to the Tech Note and reassure them that the issue does NOT apply to their product (Multi RS)?

I have tagged @guystewart numerous times in this current forum topic. If he simply misread the conversation I am referring to on the old community forum and therefore his reply to it at the time was mistaken, it would be rather helpful for him to acknowledge this instead of allow this cloud of uncertainty and ambiguity to continue to exist.

I do understand he is no doubt very busy (yes, I am aware of how Victron’s business model works and the small size of the Victron workforce - I am not new to working with Victron products). As the Community Manager though, I do hope he at least has the opportunity to skim over the posts in which he gets tagged and is able to respond to any where his input would be in Victron’s interest. It has only been nine days though since I started this topic, so it is perfectly likely he has been on leave or just swamped this past week or so… I remain hopeful.

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Hi,

Sorry, I haven’t read all the back and forth here, but I think I get the gist.

If you are having issues with your Victron product the first and best thing to do is talk to your dealers.

Victron tech notes are not typically made public, but distributed through our dealers. They may be extended or updated over time, and the dealer channel is the most up to date place to get details on that.

In this case the tech note was made public on the community.

That tech note only extends the warranty for the MPPT RS 450/100 within that serial number range.

I don’t know of any other statements from Victron extending the warranty for any of the other RS products concerning this issue, however it’s best to talk to the dealer for the latest information when there is a product or warranty issue.

I don’t have any extra authority than they do in handling a warranty claim. I will always defer to them regarding the handling of a specific situation, they have their own process of escalation through their Victron sales managers if there is an issue they can’t resolve.

Victron warranty for all products (except batteries and solar panels) can be extended for up to 10 years if a customer needs that extra assurance, dealers also have further details about that program.

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The statement/comment was not aimed at you. None of them are. I don’t know you at all nor your background. I made comments from my personal experience and understanding.

You have made the assumption i don’t understand design and production. While products can share design they are not made at the same on the same line. And so part batches can be different and therefore product reliability and tolerances can be different. Hence why even parrallel systems with units have to be close in production.
If many RMAs were made for a product which fail in the same way it is a fairly simple step from there to naming what is the problem if the previous and following batches are ok.