European grid voltage very high, quattros went off

Q&A and troubleshooting DESS
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1

Good afternoon,

On 08-01-2025 at around 1230 till 1330 (Portugal) I got various alarms saying bus failure 3 and a little later bus failure 14, leading to 3 times an automatic restart of the system.
Upon investigation we found (my neighbour was there during the 3rd black-out) that only the 3 yellow bulk leds where on from all 3 inverters, meaning grid high voltage, but no alarm was registered, nor in bus nor the Cerbo or to VRM (not possible) other than the high voltage alarms of these phases.
We found that the voltage must have passed the 270V on at least 2 phases.
E-mail service from VRM was stopped due to their ratelimiter of sending alarms as well.
The spikes were not registered in VRM, but just showing 261 and 263V, see below.

Voltage high 08-01-2025
Voltage high 08-01-20251287Ɨ674 52.9 KB

The inverters started up within 10-15 seconds the first 2 times, but the 3rd time can be clearly seen in the graph as it stayed off for 16 minutes.
The issue is, that at the time this happened the inverters were not taking power from the grid, they are always connected and the grid is our emergency generator.

Why does the inverter(s) switches off when the grid voltage is high (but not used) instead of just switch the power off internally to the control board only and continue on its secondary DC power supply, like in island mode without a grid.
Are there any such issues registered in our community, as lately there was a Dutch camping owner who changed to Victron, as he burned his inverters and some PV panels before due to the ever increasing grid voltage in Europe.
That would mean, thatā€™s not the solution, as with high voltage it switches off the sameā€¦
Specially ESS installations and other grid connected will suffer a lot from this as wellā€¦
In VE-config the maximum setting is 270V, so above, no inverter workingā€¦

I will now install a 4-pole 40A relay and an over/under-voltage switch to just switch the grid completely off above 250-255V (nor in VE-config, nor in the Cerbo you can program a relay to do that) to solve this temporarily or maybe permanent.

The grid supplier is notified, but, as usual, they are slower thanā€¦and nothing will be done about it, see below last half year in detail mode, EDP is the local supplier there.

EDP half a year Vieira do Minho
EDP half a year Vieira do Minho1285Ɨ685 89.2 KB

Regards, Jeroen.

1 Like
3

Good afternoon Ludo,

I like your proposal, but I have 3 phase 8K quattros, and, such stabilizer hangs on the grid side, running then all day long, consuming a ton of money just on standby (1100-1500 euro a year), especially the bigger ones with servo motors for each phase separately, not worth the investment, just a relay and a 3-phase over-voltage switch will do for sure way better.
BTW, the one you show above will burn out or switch off also above 260V, better to change that advert, as Victron moderators do not like to show where you can buy things.
Do you have and/or experience these grid high voltages as well when you travel around in your mobile home?

Regards, Jeroen.

4

Man man man ā€¦ the European electricity grid really is a construction site at every corner ā€¦

The voltage is clearly but clearly above 260V ā€¦ but an interesting device ā€¦ especially at this price ā€¦

6

The device is definitely interesting for use on AVR generators ā€¦ you would have to try it out for the price ā€¦

8

I would of course be interested in the ā€˜speedā€™ of the regulation. What about an AVR with a short power dip? does the device also manage this ā€¦ are there any data sheets or a manufacturerā€™s reference ā€¦ can be deleted here because there is no PN function :wink:

10

Iā€™ve seen such deviceā€¦
It has inside an autotransformer with a few relays and a small electronic board with a PIC microcontroller.
Based on the input voltage, the relays switch to different connections of the transformer winding.

So one can do the math of how quick they areā€¦

12

Hereā€™s a picture of a similar one from the same seriesā€¦
Doesnā€™t seem like a single trafo with a capacitorā€¦ :wink:
You can see the relays and electronics.

1
11387Ɨ798 218 KB

13

These chinese mini-regulators do more harm than good. They are not a solution for overvoltage grid faults. They do not work if you have 270V+, input voltage is max 260V. This will cry louder than the Multiā€™s - it will be like a chourus who can cry loudest :joy:

The solution is to have either an SPD or a digital voltage monitor relay which above 265V for example trips and reconnects when grid is back to normal. Set it under the overvoltage of your Victron setting and this way you avoid ending up in the dead-lock situation, Multi will just see it as a grid lost event, rather than grid over-voltage event.

1 Like
14

I see a toroidal centre :grimacing:

I was expecting an ā€˜HF coreā€™ with an FET stage or something ā€¦ here only primary is clocked to secondary ā€¦ hum hum hum :sweat_smile:

17

I think the function of the transductor is perfect for voltage stabilisation ā€¦ but in this design never for adapting to different input voltages.
A simple construction consisting of winding and capacitor without control cannot achieve this. Here I would have to constantly change the winding ratio in rapid repetition
The electronics in our illustration could account for this.

However, this ā€˜forgottenā€™ technology is interesting

19

Yes, thanks for the effort :slight_smile:
Iā€™ll delve into that ā€¦ But thanks for this technical insight :slight_smile:

21

in the grey future you will find a small blue box ā€¦ completely weathered with a coil and a capacitor inside ā€¦ All the researchers look at each other questioningly ā€¦ :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
to be continued ā€¦

23

ā€¦ und so schƶn auf deusch :slight_smile: ā€¦ da hab ich ja was zu lesen ā€¦ danke :+1:

24

Good morning,

These smaller stabilizers are only used directly on the grid and then directly to an electric consumer, never to an inverter.
That would be the first one, one inverter in front of the other oneā€¦

The Generico-SEV M3-30 from Adajusa is a 24KW/30KW 3-phase voltage stabilizer is in my range.
As mentioned these bigger ones are servo motor controlled, and used also directly to the consumer and are pure sinus.
The downside of these things is that these are not so energy efficient, costing a ton of money per year, just on standby alone.

I do not see any advantages from the above discussion, other than again a bad build piece of equipment that prematurely fails after a little time of use, thanks Alex for the inside photo.
Then, the technology they use in these single phase Chinese things is just ā€œchoppingā€ the voltage, well, I use 3 ā€œchoppersā€ to control my 3-phase water coils proportionally, Fadisel R-27 (2 older and 1 newer PWM one), these do exactly the same, and cannot be used for sensitive electronics.

I still go for a simple relay and an over/under voltage switch, cost effective, proven electronics, propper brands, many to choose from, no extra space, bulletproof, so to say.
Or if there is another way to switch off the grid through a Victron relay/software, then I will do that, not found yet btw.

Regards, Jeroen.

25

Just a thoughtā€¦ maybe for ones that have an energy meter put in front of the inverterā€¦
That energy meter is still providing info about grid voltages, even if the Victron inverterā€™s AC-IN relay disconnects, right?
So maybe a small script that is taking the info from the energy meter dbus paths and connect or disconnects accordingly the inverterā€™s AC-IN relay ?..

But if you think about it, even the inverter is still having the AC-IN info, even if the AC-IN relay is disconnecting the gridā€¦
So, not even the need of an energy meterā€¦

Of course, the script should disconnect the grid through AC-IN relay before the voltages that will trigger the high voltage alarmā€¦

26

Good morning Alex,

Indeed, I was just checking in VE again, no result, also through the Cerbo it doesnā€™t have this option to choose input voltage to switch one relay.
Also the led alarms assistant does not have high voltage.
I tested quickly with an ET-340, also no option to switch a relay by the Cerbo.

Yep, inside the wiring to the control board is connected before the input relais, this, of course, is also for the ā€œanailzerā€ function before switching the grid through and/or in charger mode.
There should be the small relay to switch that offā€¦in case of overvoltage, not even an amp goes thereā€¦but thats an modificationā€¦losing the guaranteeā€¦but the inverter then runs on DC.
Weā€™ll have to check further and see whatā€™s best.
It would be nice to have an high voltage assistant (with timer) with the K1/K2 relais or internally, that would be the easiest solution integrated in the inverter, this as some installations do run stand alone.

Regards, Jeroen.

28

Hi Jeroen,
I was talking about a script or a Node-Red flow. Easier with Node-Red if you have the large image installed.
From there - Node-red - you can choose an input node that provides the AC-IN voltage.
And then, based on a comparison function, you can drive through an output node the Inverterā€™s AC-IN relay. (or Cerboā€™s relay)

29

Good afternoon Alex,

Yes, that is all possible as you say, but thatā€™s for 1000nds abracadabra, my point of view is that it should not happen and should be solved in an assistant (standard) or in a function in a GX (in general).
The best would be as you said before, an ET-340 (or similar) in front of an inverter with the relay in between, then in the GX an option to switch the relay (and with switch back on delay) during over voltage.
Even better, a small relay what switches off the primary power to the control board internally of the inverter.

Looking around for an overvoltage relay the last 2 days, wow, these companies sell tons of that stuff at the moment, and nobody complainsā€¦

They sell complete units up to 63A (mostly Chinese stuff), relay integrated, no, not for me, none of those, when these fail, no manual control.
So, it will be for now, a 3-phase overvoltage switch that switches a 40A 4-pole NC relay with a manual switch as well.
Only to open when energized, to save again energy not to have that coil energized a year long.
This, as security, when the overvoltage switch is broken , the energizing contact will be open, so nothing happens other that the inverters switch off again temporarily with overvoltage, the big relay can be switched on/off manually as well, handy for testing.

I think thatā€™s the temporarily/permanent solution for now, till Victron engineers make that available in GX or in the inverter with an assistant.

Another thing I will check is the 2 AC inputs of a quattro, I forgot if the main board only gets its power from AC1 or 2 as well, if so only from 1 then I just switch grid the inputs, running only on DC power supply all the time.

Of course, a Multi keeps the same issues, please Victron, have a look at this, voltage is rising drastically in Europe, what to do?

Regards, Jeroen.

30

Good afternoon Ludo,

I checked those, indeed, not made anymore, these were more to stabilize voltage swings and frequency swings, then the voltage was still our ā€œfamousā€ 220V.
AND, we still had the ā€œmagnetronā€ TVs, mainly working on frequency and high voltage, 158 vertical, 258 horizontal lines if I remember well, 3 by 4 it is called today?
I grew up with black and white TV btw, like you.

Well, I just got in contact with the above mentioned voltage stabilizer company, they say clearly, only to be used in one way.
Meaning, not possible to place in between an inverter which delivers also to the grid as then it will overheat, etc, catastrophic results.

Then, I asked the local technician who is responsible for our grid here, the grid transformers are so big that it is actually possible to use those 2 way, but these babies are oil submerged and way different constructed, and have a fixed ratio, meaning itā€™s a problem from the HV to the LV stations transformers, and even, he says the generation centrals in generalā€¦
Instead of putting more HT cabling in Europe and/or thicker ones, they raise the voltage to transport energy.
Mainly, due to the ā€œboomā€ sales of electric cars last years and a big delay in changing HV cabling.
He says, this problem will be there for sure till 2035 due to the electric car sale agreements.
Iā€™m flabbergasted, in the meantime we ā€œnormal peopleā€ burn our household equipmentā€¦and nobody complainsā€¦

Regards, Jeroen.

32

Good afternoon,

Yep, not really bi-directional, Iā€™ve checked, besides, my wife will deforce me, too many euros, no, as written above, overvoltage switch with relay for nowā€¦

Regards, Jeroen.