European grid voltage very high, quattros went off

Q&A and troubleshooting DESS
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34

Good afternoon Ludo,

I understand your idea, but it’s not working anymore today.
Its not about what we believe, its about what is happening with the grid as we speak, ESS, DESS, no grid feed, but used as back-up (not to have a generator), we all hang in a way on the grid in europe, right?
The issue is there…
You carry in your mobile home such device in front of your inverter, no, nobody does…
Does a normal household with or without inverters and/or batteries have to buy this, no…it’s a grid issue, and our very best Victron inverters (and some other brands) cannot cope with 270v.
The basic problem is the grid …and so your grid provider pays you a voltage regulator, no, they don’t,…
Do not forget, we all have to go green, cities cannot of course…burning their home appliances without knowing.
Your solution is consumer oriented, that cannot be, as we buy consumer products, every day, your TV, with 270v will last a day or 2…

So, I hope I catched the point, these voltage stabilizers are from grid to consumer, not to be used 2 way with our inverters to deliver to the grid!

Regards, Jeroen.

36

The victron should disconnect from grid above 253 volts here in the Netherlands. This setting is also in veconfigure. I believe I saw it disconnect once, when the voltage became 254 volts the multiplus switched to inverting mode.

For real overvoltage I installed a OBB V20-C surge controller at the incoming grid connection which will trip the main breaker.

37

Good morning Jeroen (naamgenoot),

Yes, such devices are here (Portugal) mandatory in TT, earth pin inhouse only and/or various earth pins in and around the house.
For the grid side (input inverters) we have the Hager P120 (3x) and the P150, these should keep the phases and neutral on 255V when there is a lightning strike.
Under normal conditions and the voltage goes over the 255V nothing happens, only with a strike.
On the output of the inverters we have the Hager SPN465R, what will keep the neutral on 255V and the phases on 275V.
This as not only a strike can come through the grid but can also come from PV panels, outside lamps, buried cabling, even through the earth pin, etc.
The OBO V20-C limits the phases at 280V and the neutral at 255V.
There are many brands for that, but these do not solve the overvoltage we experience.

Then, when you set in VE, the input voltages as you have, indeed it will go to inverter control, however, the control board still gets the grid voltage (and also measures), if it comes above the 265-270-isch Volt than the inverter trips, as I experienced, see above.

For your insertion to the grid, the grid is the grid, you must raise the voltage (normally plus 3-5V) to be able to insert to the grid, just set the maximum voltage to 258-260V instead of 255V, check how that goes.
I do not insert to the grid, I have my own micro-grid at 230V, at full PV power on the output, the output of the inverters are still 230V, always, that output the main inverters regulate perfect, during full PV and starting heavy equipment we see fluctuations of maximum 3V only, very good.

Therefore I say that the people with ESS, DESS and direct grid connected have now big issues due to the high grid voltage, damaging many household appliances.
And even, people like me, hanging on the grid for backup only, any inverter will trip above 265-270-isch Volt anyway as it primarily feeds the control board.
Only, the real off-grid inverters run on their secondary power supply from the battery.

Thats, why we want to place a simple relais in between the grid and the inverters, so it keeps on running when very high voltages occur.
Maybe only once or twice a year now, but it does…

Regards, Jeroen.

38

Good afternoon,

We have been busy…to see this AC power supply in an inverter.
This is the board from a 24V Quattro, see below.

board of T7A fuse and AC1 in power supply
board of T7A fuse and AC1 in power supply1920×4573 952 KB

The top circle above the big capacitor is the +24VDC battery power supply with a “littelfuse” T7A fuse right below to it, here taken off btw.
The 2 small holes besides the big capacitor is the battery -24VDC.
The bottom right circle is the AC1-in AC power supply with only N and L.
The bottom left circle is the transformer from the AC supply, and clearly it can be seen 260V in and 17V/10VA out 630mA fuse.

So, indeed, somewhere above that voltage, things will happen.

Regards, Jeroen.

39

If you simulate a grid blackout does the system invert as it should?

What is your grid code and or grid settings?
What batteries do you have?

Some other basic information about your system would be helpful too. Like what batteries do you actually have.

As a user of an excessively variable grid system the use of SPDs with a combination of programmed tight grid voltage tolerances helps to not have that crazy voltage passing into my home appliances.

40

Good morning,

Yes, when I use VE and set the high voltage lower (to simulate) than the grid, it ignores the grid and goes to inverter mode.
If I switch off the grid it goes to inverter mode.
We do not inject to the grid, we use it as a generator only, already 11 years, in VE “None”, “feeding energy from DC to grid not allowed”.
The grid is only switched on with a low SOC of the batteries by the contacts of the 3 BMVs and the relay of the Cerbo (for remote control), all4 contacts go to a relay (can be switched locally) which then goes to the aux1 input of the Master Quattro.
Then the assistants, switch the grid on/off, on low voltage of the batteries and if high load occurs over a certain time, nothing special there.
So, that works perfectly.
The batteries have nothing to do with it, lead acid, 4200AH 24V, yes, very big ones and they are just fine.

When you look at other inverters inside, most of them have the same little transformer on the AC1-in, well a Multi has only 1 AC-in.

My setting in VE is 270V high ignore AC-in, 265V reconnect AC-in, above 270V-isch, the inverter switches off completely instead ignoring the AC-in only and shows me the led alarm overvoltage, only orange bulk led on, alarm 18 in the Quattro manual alarm list, not showing in VRM, alarm mail, not even on the Cerbo, only visual (by luck my neighbour was there).
It showed however by mail, Cerbo and VRM, alarm 3 and alarm 14, coms fail in bus basically, since one or more quattros switched off of course.

Regards, Jeroen.

41

Good morning LX,

Here some more photos of some Multis and compact Multis.

Multi compact transformer
Multi compact transformer

Multi 3K transformer
Multi 3K transformer154×142 4.68 KB

Smallest Multi transformer
Smallest Multi transformer108×120 3.2 KB

2K Multi transformers

Sorry for the quality, with the courtesy of the House of Victron in their repair sheets.
What I can see, is when I zoom in on the original photos, is that all these transformers are made for 260V primarily as is the same in a Quattro.
So, I would presume that the VE-grid settings and the “above 270V overvoltage software” is the same as well for all of these, and so trip completely “above 270V” as well.

I think this is a question for Victron engineering, anybody?

Regards, Jeroen.

42

Living in South Africa, we have had woes with the grid.

Some lost inverters, some lost household appliance in droves.

A Solution: 12-01035 Trip-Connect 3P-V2 | Clearline Store
Also get the single phase: 12-01036 - Tripconnect 1P | Clearline Store

To disconnect the house from the grid (the non-critical loads) AND the Victron inverter (Critical Loads), some of us started using Tripconnect products, as per advice from a local Victron dealer.

Settings: (mine, can be anything)

  • Grid volts exceed 250v, disconnect the main DB from the grid … before Victron has to disconnect the Critical Loads Circuit.

  • Grid volts <245 for 5 minutes, re-connect the Main DB to the grid.
    Note: Generally the average grid volts where we live is 245v.

  • Grid Volts too low, my setting, 215v, disconnect too.

  • Reconnects Main DB at 218v if stable for 5 minutes.

  • Has Surge Protection too for if a transformer blows.

  • And if the grid is off, and comes back on again, it waits 5 minutes for it to become stable, before it connects the Main DB.

This device is in Europe too.

Hope this helps someone.

1 Like
43

Good afternoon Jaco,

Indeed, that’s exactly what we want to do as well.
And the second relay from the Cerbo to set it manual as well through VRM.
Do you use a NC or NO relay, we think to use a NC 40A, as that saves energy not to have it energized all day long?

Regards, Jeroen.

44

Pleasure.

I installed the 63a Tripconnect as the main breaker in the main DB is also 63A.

Not sure what the state of the Tripconnect relay is (sealed unit) but looking at the big scheme of things, those few mA are nothing for me compared to the entire system inefficiencies i.e. from panels to batts to AC … and then inclement weather. :slight_smile:

I was after the protection of the devices that are all linked, in one way or another, to the grid.

What I did not mention, I also have surge protection in the DB, over and above the Tripconnect, installed BEFORE and AFTER the inverter.

BEFORE in case the Tripconnect does not survive.
AFTER, in case of a close by lighting strike that the surge from like a phone line/satellite dish, steers clear of the inverter.

And surge protection in the combiner box, per MPPT, to protect the MPPT’s.

Learnt all these things over time as other had disasters.

45

Good afternoon Jaco,

Exactly, as I wrote above, 2 surge protectors, one for the grid and one for our micro grid, only then all is save.
Besides I have to concrete masts with forked double 10mm2 wiring to catch a strike instead my house 50 meters away of the house.
Yep, you are correct about the relay, easier to get NO, we will reconsider.

Regards, Jeroen.

46

What you describe seems a serious problem caused by other EDP customers nearby your house. To help EDP tracing the problem you should record the voltage over longer times. Obviosly the overvoltage happens when solar power is maximum.

You have to take into account, that power goes up by square with the voltage. According to the law of Ohm, a 1kW heater for 230V is a 53 Ohm resistor. If you increase the voltage to 270V, the current will be 270V/53Ohm=5,1 Amp. This results in a power of 270V*5,1A=1375 Watt what will kill every 1000 Watt device prematurely.

There are 2 diffrent reasons for such overvoltage.

  1. Voltage drop on supply lines for the reason of high PV power transfers
  2. Resonance in case of capacitve reactive power nearby your house

According to 2) reactive power is a way to increase and decrease the grid voltage for any local points. The German VDE grid code forces the inverter to supply 10% capacitive or inductive apparent power to correct grid voltages out of specification in both directions. Obviously your neighbours dont do this or they even have a wrong setup what corrects voltage in wrong direction.

In your case, you can try to drop the voltage using a high inductive reactive load. For testing, any big asynchronous motor with a heavy fly wheel mass will be ok. Once the fly wheel mass is accelarated, the motor consumes almost only inductive current what is not registered by your grid counter. This inductive current causes a significant voltage drop on your supply line. You also might see such inductor as parallel resonant circuit together with any assumed capacitors in your neighbourhood. The reactive energy falls back and forth between inductor and capacitor like a 50Hz pendulum what compensates the overvoltage misallignement for other resistive loads before and behind.

Its clearly the matter of EDP to find the reason of overvoltage in their grid but I doubt you will find any responsible service technicians at the EDP Gurkentruppe therefore what know about this matters and how to solve. Anyway, with the 270V other neighbours have serious problems possibly also reported to EDF. Good luck with debug.

ate a proxima
Jan

47

Good morning Jan,

Dutch? You live in Portugal?

EDP people (other than the local technicians) will come today, I’m waiting for them as I write.
I have all the data to show to them…very handy in VRM…I love it…
In my surrounding are just a few houses with solar coupled to the grid, we all “hang” on that same transformer at the end of our land.
We think it’s a transformer “fail”.
The overvoltages also appear when sun down or no sun.
The under voltages are even worse, but that I do not care, that’s not destroying or switching off my inverters.
We as individual consumers do not have to solve this issue, it’s the suppliers responsibility to deliver power according the laws for that in the first place.

Regards, Jeroen.

48

Good afternoon,

This is our solution to the over (under) voltage issue.
A Hager 4 pole NC relais, ESC 464.
And an Exta PNM-31.

The exta monitors the 3 phases and when to high or to low it switches the Hager main relay open, disconnecting the grid to the inverters completely.

Regards, Jeroen.

1 Like
49

Good morning,

We got the stuff, I’m not at the site, only after 2-3 weeks or so, then we will install it.

image0
image01512×2016 107 KB

Regards, Jeroen.

50

Good morning,

The high/low voltage protection Zamel Exta PMR-31 and Hager ESC464 are mounted and tested.

IMG_20250328_102527977
IMG_20250328_1025279771920×2550 130 KB

It’s mounted in such a way that during a blackout, the Hager main relay stays closed.
Only during a low/high voltage, phase failure, phase rotation in reverse or the Zamel relay fails, the Hager main relay will switch to open.
This Zamel output relay is energised when everything is within its limits, the Hager main relay is then not energized as can be seen by the red led.
Output 2 from the Cerbo is connected in series (by a 24V powered Finder relay) with the Hager main relay coil and the Zamel output contact, so, in case of a failure of the Zamel relay or grid we can switch the Hager main relay also manual in VRM.
We used this NC (normally closed) Hager main relay, instead the usual NO (normally open) relay.
This, not to have the coil energized 24 hours a day and generating 20W of heat and consuming 60+W of power.

Regards, Jeroen.

3 Likes
51

Good afternoon,

General European grid fail today, very good, hopefully governments and companies start to think better.
I laugh my head off, the above solution we installed as above, worked already a couple of times, as also today of course!
The VRM is not giving updates now for 12 minutes…Victron?..batteries empty or is the streaming of the server reduced?
The local restaurant here has wood ovens and barrel beer, so, we have hot lunch and cold beer, hahaha

Regards, Jeroen.

53

Good afternoon,

Its not a cyber attack, not at all, we checked our land based Victron installations at the time it happened with a couple of colleagues and friends very quickly as it happened.
Lisbon and Braga have 5 minutes difference, Lisbon first, Braga the last in Portugal.
This just happened due to not enough thick enough power lines and the Spain distribution centrals switching off from North to south due to not getting power from France.
So, North of Spain went off first slowly going to south, when there the last border line went off to Portugal, then Lisbon to Braga, south to North went off.
All in a slow time line, Bilbao to Algeciras then Lisbon to Braga in reverse, all took about 12 minutes.
Proving that our grid is overpowered already for years and not enough side-lines available.
Just now, VRM went off-line…already 32 minutes, mmmm, Victron must buy bigger batteries…
I must make a joke, a green Power Company that has not enough backup during a blackout…

Regards, Jeroen.

54

Good afternoon,

Its back again, updates in VRM, VRM world is ok, local servers are failing, battery empty of course and no generator.
Grid is still down.

Regards, Jeroen.

56

Good afternoon Ludo,

What we first did was checking a cyber attack, it’s not, you see we help with that.
My company was called because of that and I posted into the community asap, you see?

Second, we call already since the beginning of last year about this to governments and high tension companies…nothing happend in any country…you see?
Therefore it is good, all people affected will uprise and hopefully governments and companies will take actions now, so it will not happen so often.

You know what is a brownout, a planned blackout, e.g. Singapore about once a week, etc, worldwide many places…
VRM is worldwide and is a measurement for the grid in general, amongst the others like Outback, etc, independant of governments and also real time.

“Everybody” uses ESS and other grid linked systems, well…
The people with a battery laugh…like you in your mobile home and me with 100Kwh battery and sun and place for 22 adults and 8 children (yes, very big house), pffff, no problem at all.

People know, but do not listen…cities…the worst…now these pay the price first…(rotting food in a freezer or cooler).
Hopefully now governments and companies will act to put secondary high power lines in Europe, as this is only done in some places only and not enough, see above reactions by others also…
ESS, very good, only with a big battery…
This year Portugal so far, 18 blackouts (2-10minutes), over voltages +260V about once a week, you see?

Regards, Jeroen.