Is Victron documentation too complicated?

[huib]

I did, sort of..

I started with watching all the YouTube videos from Harold Halewijn and off grid centrum. Next where the victron training videos especially the one from South Africa about setting up a 3 phase system. Read the ess manual and documentation in the victron website.

As you said. It is almost too complex to understand, even with almost 42 years of experience in engineering of ship building and all what is connected.
Also did everything in my own house incl the electrical system and replacement of my 3 phase breaker cabinet.

Even than… It is a lot of information. Really a lot. Had intensive communication with some electrical engineers in shipbuilding mostly about cable sizes and breaker selection so i was pretty sure about the safety side. But the victron system is absolutely not customer friendly. I would not even recommend it to a non technical person if it is installed by a professional because it needs constant monitoring and adjustment.

[nickdb (Nick)]

Hi, I have moved this to a new topic for discussion in the context of new and DIY users.
I will share my own journey when time permits.

[huib]

Even the official ship installers like from Oechies, Royal vd Leun and the people i know from Verhoef EMC here in the Netherlands don’t know about ESS possibilities of victron systems. They think it’s only about batteries and shore power. I don’t trust official installers for that reason. Think for yourself! But the information has to be simple and coherent. And standard settings that needs to be interpreted are a hazard.

Knowing the home battery is booming the upcoming years, i suggest victron defines some standard systems for ESS with preferred components for DIY installers completed with all the necessary information about cable sizes and lengths, breakers, main switches etc.

[M_Lange (Matthias Lange - DE)]

@huib

because it needs constant monitoring and adjustment.

If installed and configured correctly an ESS can and will run without constant monitoring/adjustment.

[nickdb (Nick)]

In my personal capacity I have a number of sites that have not been touched in years. Beyond the GX, firmware is as is. It just works, when that changes the plan will change.

If a site wasn’t designed to be balanced, that can be a bigger issue.

[nickdb (Nick)]

Years ago I started this journey. I have an engineering (electrical, electronics, software etc) background.
I chose Victron as a standard since it was scalable, flexible and was very progressive with software and open source.
It became apparent that making the system work was so much more than connecting the right gauge wire to the correct connection point.

I saw so many electricians making that mistake, that plugging it in and walking away would make it work, but it just didn’t.
Designing and configuring it was more important.

Yet, it was really tough to find all the info you needed in one place.

Finding the pro site, needed a reference.

All the detail you needed existed, but across multiple manuals, often lost in huge documents that were far too bloated, trying to be a single reference for multiple generations of hardware and software.

You really needed a technical Shirpa, for me, then, the community was that.

I have previously asked for a dynamic cookbook where you can select your use case, chosen features and hardware and get a single reference with relevant information.
Given the huge shift in demand to home/DIY users, it really should be easier to find what you are looking for.

Equally, when helping to look after a forum, you realise that no matter how detailed a manual or community is, too many will not read nor search, and when it goes wrong blame the product for not being easier to use.

If you are prepared to invest the time, the help and information is available, and someone will be here to assist you to find it. But If you lack the foundation to tackle the project, no youtube video nor AI will be sufficient to guarantee success.

[huib]

True, and not true.

I started thinking 1x mp2-48-5000 with 2x pylontech us5000 was enough.
Upgraded to 3 phase and 4x pylontech us5000
Upgraded with mppt and 6 extra solar panels.

On the management side:
Peakshaving issues still exist in fw 3.55 for car charger at ac-in.
Constantly upgrading beta firmware for this issue.
Hoping my homewizzard solar meters are working without node red
Switching between dess green mode and trade mode when dynamic day ahead prices changes.
Trying ess mode without dynamic ess for being prepared for 2027 dutch energy subsidies changes.
Trying to figure out how to let my boiler heat with excess solar after my battery has fully charged.
And so on, and so on.

[nickdb (Nick)]

Fully agree. You have chosen all the newer tech - EVCS and DESS. Those have really had to mature rapidly.
To get anywhere you need to be on betas.
I won’t argue about that one bit.

My sites run standard ESS’s, which is now very mature, some challenges notwithstanding.
I have witnessed the deluge of queries on both DESS and EVCS so acknowledge your experience and the challenges with documentation.

[vcleto (Valdson)]

@nickdb

Equally, when helping to look after a forum, you realise that no matter how detailed a manual or community is, too many will not read nor search, and when it goes wrong blame the product for not being easier to use.

The worst part is when someone reads the manual, realizes that it is wrong (giving parameters for a 51.2V battery and saying that it is for a 48V battery), and those responsible for the community deny the problem and say that the manual could not be clearer and have the correct information. And they even delete the messages of those who pointed out the problem and threaten to suspend them…

[M_Lange (Matthias Lange - DE)]

Critique/hints about errors in the manual are appreciated if it is reasonable.
But in that case I (and some of the others) don’t see where the problem in the Victron documentation is.
It has been forwarded to the documentation team but I don’t think there will be any changes in the manuals.

@vcleto

giving parameters for a 51.2V battery and saying that it is for a 48V battery

Where did you find that?

As I wrote in the other topic, 16S LiFePO4 with nominal 51,2V is the standard for “48V”.
Almost all battery manufactures build LiFePO4 batteries with 16 cells.
→ that preset would fit for almost all batteries*
I only know Pylontech and Cegasa with 15S.

*But even there the installer has to adjust the charger setting according to the manual of the battery, you have to read all manuals of all components in your system to configure it correctly.

[huib]

Matthias, you are also absolutely right. A car manufacturer don’t have to put in the manual what kind of bearings are used in the wheel. A car seller don’t have to inform the customer what the torque values of the wheels are. (They probably don’t know, they only know about the color of the car and maybe the horsepower)

But when you have a flat tire and the customer have to install a spare wheel it would be nice to tell the customer how many bolt needs to be placed for safe travel.

So, if the installer choose 16s battery and they fail in 10 year and the customer buy a pylontech to keep the power going.. it would be nice to know about this.
Failures are in the preset.. so remove the preset and let people think about it.

[nickdb (Nick)]

@huib

Failures are in the preset.. so remove the preset and let people think about it.

There are some points to remember as well.
One of the first points of call before setting up, is the Victron/battery config document.

In pylontech’s case: Victron & Pylontech UP2500, US2000, US3000, US2000C, US3000C, US5000, US5000B, UF5000, Pelio-L, UP5000, Phantom-S, Force-L1 & L2 [Victron Energy]

This steps you through connecting the battery, checking the GX etc.
When this is done, DVCC is automatically forced on, so any default settings are overridden and the system is controlled by the BMS.

It then also steps you through the inverter setup:

Which provides additional protection, even though DVCC will override this.

The inverter manual is a generic reference that requires the installer to apply their mind first.
The ESS setup doc exists for 24 supported batteries and contains (almost) everything anyone needs to systematically configure the battery to best practice.

[huib]

True but in my case.. i thought the cable from bms to cerbo gx was a communication cable delivered by pylontech in the same card box as the battery saying on 1 side battery bms and other side inverter bms. No communication was available between the 2.
It was only until i was checking the detected components in the vrm dashboard the same day that i was missing the battery.
All this time the mp2 was in lifepo standard setting.. because… What could go wrong with a std setting… Lucky for me the battery was only at 80% charge when i noticed, made the right cable (thank you victron for the pin layout on the website) and then dvcc was forced on.

[ChiefSolar]

Hmm. Is Victron Documentation too complicated? Which documentation?

1.) end-user documentation?
2.) installers documentation?
3.) developers documentation?

I know for a fact that most, if not all, great products don’t need documentation. Ever used a manual for the browser that you use? Your phone or tablet?

So yeah sorry but there are most certainly areas that could use some love. Sometimes it is really simple. For example. Why is there no tooltip when you hover over the ESS #6 or whatever text? That way nobody needs to google it.

About ESS running for years without maintenance. Really? Is that with or without firmware upgrades and with or without any Node-RED flows?

The default setup would fail certification testing here, as charging batteries may, at least in some countries, only be charged up from the grid following strict rules. The problem is that they keep changing them, so here comes Johny to solve that for the end user/customers.

[DuivertNL (Marc)]

My ess runs flawless for over 2 years now, no updates since install, no need to update either, just like victron recommends

I think all the info and instructions are there, finding them as a victron beginner can be a bit difficult, but just follow the instructions and manuals available by victron that are online, and there should not be an problems

Most problems i see are users/beginners that dont follow instructions/manuals and victron minimum requirements and so on…

[Skipper]

We live in a suing society. Hence the enormous amount of warnings found in most manuals. If you are a DIY it’s 100% your responsibility to understand what you’re getting yourself into. I love Victron for its open architecture and scalability. There are “Apple like” options out there which are more plug and play compared to Victron. Please select those if that’s more your style.

I believe Victron manuals, the wiring unlimited book together with the videos and training they provide are enough to understand the system. That a battery is 15 or 16 cells is not Victrons responsibility to distinguish.
That’s 100% on the person installing the gear.

[ChiefSolar]

Yes. Do NOT update a perfectly running installation. You may break something.

Personally I do not have any issues with the documentation. But honestly. It’s been a while already that I looked at it

And as a developer. Being it on Love a challenge. Wrote a HomeWizard integration a while ago, and last week one for Growatt. Running on the Cerbo GX devices.

[NeptuneUK]

The problem can be that you make a product that is really powerful so you only have to supply and maintain a single build.

For the majority of users the basic install is ‘fine’.

I worked in IT for decades and you realise really quickly that although end users ‘think’ they know how to use their software, they are usually working inefficiently and barely utilising their investment to the full, then they just want the software to know what they want it to do.

You can either read all the manuals, do the training, and practice in the real world yourself, or you can pay someone who has already done all of that, knows how and where to get more advanced answers, and has a network of supporting professionals, when you want to move beyond the basic plug and play installation.

No two installations are ever exactly the same, something no matter how small is different.

Makes you wonder why commercial pilots need to train to fly commercial jets, because they are basically the same as a Cessna, and they all started there.

[vcleto (Valdson)]

@M_Lange

@vcleto

giving parameters for a 51.2V battery and saying that it is for a 48V battery

Where did you find that?

@M_Lange

As I wrote in the other topic, 16S LiFePO4 with nominal 51,2V is the standard for “48V”.
Almost all battery manufactures build LiFePO4 batteries with 16 cells.

Source?

This article says something else:

'48V Li-FePO4 batteries are commonly used in off-grid solar systems, small residential energy storage and backup power solutions. They are often favored due to their wide availability and compatibility with a variety of inverters.

51.2V Li-FePO4 batteries are becoming increasingly popular in high-performance applications that require higher voltage and efficiency. These applications include large-scale energy storage systems, industrial applications and electric vehicle power supplies.

However, due to the advances in Li-FePO4 technology and decreasing costs, in order to pursue the high efficiency of photovoltaic systems, off-grid solar systems, small residential energy storage are now also converted to Li-FePO4 batteries using 51.2V voltage systems."

What is The Difference Between 48V and 51.2V LiFePO4 Batteries?

@M_Lange

→ that preset would fit for almost all batteries*
I only know Pylontech and Cegasa with 15S.

*But even there the installer has to adjust the charger setting according to the manual of the battery, you have to read all manuals of all components in your system to configure it correctly.

Dyness too. Among the default configuration options there are options not only for specific brands but also for specific models (from brands other than Victron). I’m not saying that there should be options for all battery models from all manufacturers, just that there should be an option for 15S batteries, which is a very different type of battery from 16S, produced by several manufacturers with different models from each manufacturer. Of course, the ideal is to always configure exactly according to the battery manual, but if that’s the case, there shouldn’t be any default parameter options, or there should only be options for specific models. If there is a default configuration option, it’s because the idea is that it should be used, it’s because it’s assumed that although it’s not ideal to use a default configuration that’s not specific to a model, it’s reasonable enough to use it for that type of battery. And that’s where the problem lies, Victron provides a default configuration option for LiFePO4 batteries in general without saying that it’s for 16S LifePO4 batteries. If someone believes that all 48V batteries are 16S, as many here believe, they may find it sufficient to configure this option. They may not have the battery manual easily accessible at the moment and think that if there is any difference from what the manufacturer states, it will be a minimal and unimportant difference. And if the battery is 15S, disaster is brewing.

[vcleto (Valdson)]

@Skipper

I believe Victron manuals, the wiring unlimited book together with the videos and training they provide are enough to understand the system. That a battery is 15 or 16 cells is not Victrons responsibility to distinguish.
That’s 100% on the person installing the gear.

If Victron is not supposed to know or care about the different models of LiFePO4 batteries out there, then they should not offer a default configuration option called “Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries”. Because if someone like you, who trusts Victron, is installing a “Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) battery”, you will trust that selecting that option will do the trick, even if the battery you are installing is a 15S battery, especially if you, like many here, think that only 16S batteries exist.