Adding Victron Quattros to existing Solar PV queries

[powersquad]

Hi. I am now looking at adding couple of Victron Quattro 15000 inverters and 3 x 16kWh LifePo4 battery packs making 1 big shared battery bank across a 2phase grid (120-degrees) connected home in New Zealand that has existing Solar PV system. I want to do this via AC coupling using my existing 6kW SMA Sunny Boy inverter on which I have enabled modbus. My current setup is in the 1st photo and my proposed setup is in the next photo.

I will be adding the DC breaker for each of the Quattro as well which Claude AI was not able to add to the attached schematic it has made so ignore the missing DC breakers in the photo. I will also add the Victron Touch 50 or 70 screen and I will couple of Victron Power-IN busbars so batteries will connect to 1 bus bar and the interconnected 2nd bus bar will only have the Quattros connected.

My plan is to use a Tele online NA003 grid protection relay between the grid and AC-In of each of the Quattros using contactors. AC copuling and loads will all be connected to AC-Out of each phase of the Quattros.

I have few questions that hopefully you can help answer and provide any other recommendations.

1. Should I remove the SMA Home Manager 2 once I add the Victron inverter and batteries and let Victron handle grid exports? Will keeping the Home Manager 2 cause any issued between the SMA inverters and Victron via AC coupling with either of the brands fighting for control?

2. Can I use a single Cerbo GX Mk3 to connect both Quattro’s onto that will be running on there individual phase? The battery bank will also be connected to this single Cerbo GX Mk3 as well using CAN.

3. Is setting up 2 phase Quattros fairly straight forward using ESS guide so both Quattros and the relevant generation, battery status, loads status data shows up seamlessly in the online Victron portal and app?

4. If I am using the 250A DC breakers for each of the 16kWH battery packs and also 250A DC breakers for the Quattros, do I even need to worry about adding any fuses to the Power-in busbars?

5. Can I safely add without breaking the 1:1 AC coupling rule or over stressing the Quattro 15000 on each phase by adding an additional 6kW SMA PV inverter to total 12kW of AC inverter power to expand my PV array?

   @RobDuthie can you please also provide some help here as well as I see from search you are in NZ and have commented on few 2phase installs.

[RobDuthie]

Hi Powersquad

Yes make sure that phases shift is 120 degrees apart., as some systems i worked on here were 180 degree phase shift due the transformer wiring type.

SMAs need to be set up in micro grid mode of course, i have had some issues with SMA not doing this, they attend to over shoot on voltage when the batteries are full, going unstable.

In the end one of the SMA failed , so i removed the second SMA and replaced them with a DC coupled system using RS450/200, runs much more smoothly and controlled no over shoots etc.

They need to be setup as master and slave the Victrons inverters, MCCB will be OK for the battery protection. Are the batteries CAN bus controlled? One cerbo will control the whole system OK., You will need a victron smart meter the newer one is much faster and easy to setup VM-3P75CT

[powersquad]

@RobDuthie

VM-3P75CT

Thanks, @RobDuthie for the detailed reply.

1. I will enable modbus on the SMA’s for them to be then controlled by Quattro’s. There was another fellow kiwi I found online who has similar setup in Northland and he also experienced the SMA issue you described and after applying the latest firmware update on his SMA, it resolved the issue so I am hoping I will be ok too as I have the latest firmware applied on my SMA’s.

2. Sparky confirmed for me during SMA install when he tested it as well that it was 120 degrees as SMA support told me prior to buying the equipment that SMA Home Manager 2 monitoring device on 2phase could only work on 120 degrees and it has been working for last 3.5 years so ok there as well.

3. Yes, the batteries are CANbus controlled and honestly plug and play. You select Victron in the battery screen and plug it into the CAN-BUS port on the Cerbo. Only requirement for the comms cable between master out port on battery is it has to be T568B plug on cable and the Cerbo BMS-CAN end has to be blue and blue trace wire (terminal 7 & 8) of the cable.

4. How do I setup the comms cable between the 2 Quattro’s which then connects to the VE.BUS port I presume on the Cerbo? Do I make phase 1 Quattro master and phase 2 Quattro slave? and then connect a comms cable (standard off the shelf CAT5E/CAT6) from a slave/out? network port on phase 2 Quattro to master/in port of phase 1 Quattro? Then I assume I connect a standard CAT5E/CAT6 off the shelf cable from comms port on phase1 Quattro to VE.Bus port on the Cerbo?

5. Thanks for pointing out in buying the new VM-3P75CT smart meter as I thought the Cerbo GX had the metering monitoring capability built in. Where will the VM-3P75CT connect? Will it go in between the tele-online NA003 and AC L1 out of phase 1 quattro and AC L2 out of phase 2 quattro?

   Can I purchase 2 of the VM-3P75CT so 1 unit is configured for Grid monitoring L1 & L2 and the second unit for monitoring 3 CT loads like ducted aircon on phase 1, induction cooktop that is connected to both phases? Also, will I need to add a 3rd unit just to monitor the PV inverter generation as per screenshot below? Looking at some Victron setups, they tend to show grid activity and PV generation fine without even having the smart meter so I wonder how they are doing it unless its hiding somewhere in there video but even then do they have 2 of these units so they can see both grid activity and PV generation in VRM portal?

   

Thanks

[powersquad]

Hi @RobDuthie any thoughts please to my queries? Also I see you are in Rotorua. Will you be keen to do the cabling and install for me in Cambridge? I have the gear with me already

[RobDuthie]

Hi

Can do, i do have some other solar jobs to finish of, and one is 10 kW Victron single phase system with a 80kW Tesla battery bank to install, and rewire to a Fronius 8kW inverter as AC Coupled system to charge the batteries and export surplus power etc.

What gear do you have? I have no idea what your SWB is like or condition of it etc. As i have seen some shockers out there, which needs complete rewire to be able to fit in the extra CT and protection etc.

[powersquad]

Thanks a lot @RobDuthie

I will not require the work to start for atleast 3 months and maybe even 4 months as the batteries will take around 2 months to reach NZ. I am currently in the process of getting SDoC for the battery from a testing lab in Auckland and should get the SDoC in around 1.5 weeks. The battery has all the compliance certificates and is also listed and approved by the Australian clean energy council. I am going to become the distributor for them in NZ. They are plug and play via CANBUS for Victron and a lot more 48V inverter brands like SMA Sunny Island, Deye etc.

Attached are the upto date photos of the current SWB which I took an hour ago after your reply. Except for 2 or 3 blanked out slots to my untrained sparky eye, it looks full but maybe its enough space to put in AC related stuff like the AC coupling breakers, 3-way switch to switch between grid only, backup only and everything off/isolated for sparky to do there work, contactors for the 2 inverters, Tele-Online NA003, Victron energy meter you recommended? The SMA Home Manager can come off and I will re-sell it once you put the NA003 and Victron energy meter if they can fit next to the main grid meter? I am sure you would straight away understand what I mean by the 3 way switch as I sort of followed this setup and video for a similar 2 phase setup in Taranaki I believe but if there is a better setup instead of using 3 way switch, I am going to follow your recommendations.

Electrical isolation process for Maraekakaho Hall Emergency Response Centre.

I would like to place the 2 x Quattros and 4 x 16kWh 48V batteries incl the DC breakers etc on a different wall in the garage which I would like to call DC wall for reference sake. If I do need a new SWB for AC as well, I am hoping it can be placed on the DC wall and linked to existing SWB unless you reckon the existing SWB wall has plenty of good space to install the new AC SWB as well.

Pardon the mess but I will make the entire front drive into the garage wall where existing SWB is and the left side portion of DC wall of garage empty so you can do you work. I will keep the DC wall clean after your work anyway as it will be where the 4 x 16kWh batteries will go on the ground. It would be a good idea to also please install bollards across this DC wall portion even though its the side wall as I do not trust my wife’s driving or kids crashing there bike by accident

Gear I have for the 2-phase setup

• 2 x Victron Quattro 15000
• 1 x Tele-Online NA003 (latest K version available in NZ)
• 1 x Victron Cerbo GX
• 1 x Victron VM-3P75CT
• 1 x Victron Touch 50
• 1 x Special Victron comms cables from battery manufacturer to connect between master battery to slave Victron Quattro which then connects to master Quattro which then connects to the Cerbo as you suggested
• 4 x 16kWh LifePo4 batteries incl the RS485 to USB cable to update firmware and read the BMS if needed on a PC.
• 6 x CAT6 RJ45 patch cables incl a 10M one to connect Cerbo from DC wall to the black patch cabinet which has the network switch located as you can see in one of the photos below.
• 2 x Victron Power-In M10 bus bars interconnected so we can seperate the 4 x battery on 1 bus bar and 2 x inverters on 1 bus bar. M8 version of he bus bar is no longer available so I am hoping that the M8 lugs on cables from DC breakers to battery or the inverter won’t have any issues screwing in?
• 1 x Victron USB-MK3 cable for firmware update on Victron gear.
• ZJ Beny 6 x 250A DC breakers. I would please like to have each of the 4 battery connected to its own DC breaker before connecting to the busbar so its easy to isolate the issue. And 2 remaining DC breaker for each of the inverter.
• Battery comes supplied with pair of black & red 50mm2 1.5m cable to connect to DC breaker bottom. I will also have 4 pair of 50mm2 400mm length M8 lugs cable to connect from DC breaker top to the bus bar. I will also have more spare 50mm2 400mm length or 1M length to connect from bus bar to DC breaker bottom and same legth cable from DC breaker top to both inverters. I believe the inverters will require 2 pair of black/red cables each? If you can please also bring a spool of 50mm2 black/red cable and lugs just incase the length needs to be different.

If you can please provide any ciruit breakers for AC coupling, contactors, 3 way switches, bolt in bollards and anything else besides what I have listed above I will provide would be fantastic. If you can provide the fibre cement backboard to install the inveters on and batteries in front of that would be great if you have a big trailer to haul it all else I can have the fibre cement boards delivered to my house before hand as long as you got the tools for cutting it as I am toolless for woodworking etc.

I am keeping the space under the existing SMA inverters empty so I can easly add an PV only inverter on each phase in future which will likely happen so having additional space in SWB for that and any cabling that may be worth while running for it would be great. The F17 formply board the existing SMA inverters are mounted on was already pre-cut so bottom half of that F17 formply board can come off on its own to run any new wiring and easily mount future PV inverters. I am trying to avoid install any DC gear here as you drive into the garage and its the wall you face and I would rather not have bollards take up space between the car front and bollards to squeeze out of. Also it will be very tight on space to install future PV inverters and the quattros and batteries.

The DC Wall is 2.7M wide from start of garage to the shelf starting legs you see in photo below. The depth is 700mm from wall to the start of the shelf start legs and stud height in garage is 2.7M. There is attic with ladder access inside the garage availble. The DC wall from where the shelf start leg wall starts is adjacent to home office. The marked blue area is not adjacent to any internal habitable space at all as shown in another photo showing the outside of what it looks like. Hence why I figured the fibre cement wall maybe needed for complaince being so close to a habitable space?

Please let me know if there is anything I have missed. I come under Waipa networks and I checked with them via email around the NA003 and Quattros install and they were happy to approve those. Around the battery install location, they said they dont check that so it just needs to meet the AS/NZ compliance between me and the electrician.