Please help me identify the BMS

I have these two new 100 /110 Ah batteries, each 16s1p and front design as shown here.

I have got the system humming along now so no great urgency, but each of these is showing a slightly different state of health, around 90%. So I would like to “exercise” them up to 100%.

To me they look like Pace BMS’ but Pace says they are not based on serial numbers.

The supplier (Micromall, Auckland, New Zealand) says to get them to report 100% soh I need to apply high voltage for a long period but that is tricky being off grid with only solar. I was hoping to tweak the BMS to allow charging to 100% SoH but for that I think I need to find a group like this that is knowledgeable about this BMS.

So, does anyone recognise these batteries? Or what more information do you need to help idenify them?

Who are the manufactures of the battery went on micro mall web site but could not find your model

http://multisibcontrol.net/

And a data cable. Cant help you with the cable though.

I don’t know. All documentation and software is generic. Is there a manufacturer in the background who white-labels for people like Micromall all over the world?

Currently using with a vendor supplied USB-serial cable and Windows software, and a hand made BMS CAN cable which works fine to determine SoC and send CCL (but not CVL) signals from battery to charger.
This works fine except that initially there was nothing between “send me amps, baby” and “sorry, I’m full”. I don’t know if the GX device is learning- probably too much to hope for- or whether the other tweaks I have done have reduced the incidence and impact of that.
You seem to be suggesting these are Pylontech batteries. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Thanks
Graham

Thanks again,
You suggested http://multisibcontrol.net/ who claim to be for “for monitoring and control of PIP/Axpert inverters and Pylontech batteries”.
I’m unfamiliar with PIP and Axpert but the link looks very interesting - do Victron inverters match “PIP/Axpert”?

The tool seems to read other batteries as well. No the victron does not work like the axpert.
The other tool that works with pace that is available is pbms tools. Which i was going to link in my previous reply and fogot to :dotted_line_face:

Hello Graham,
looks like a
seplos bms…
Just from the screen, the knobs and the io-ports.
So no idea whether that is right or wrong…

Have fun

Marc

Thanks Marc, I will follow up on Seplos.

Thanks for the suggestion Marc. I have researched Seplos and have no reason now to think mine is a Seplos BMS. The front panel layout is quite different, mine has an extra RS485 and a set of dry relay contacts not on the Seplos. There are several BMS’ which have the same layout as mine, but not Seplos.

Anyone else? I could really use getting hold of a decent manual for it, my supplier doesn’t see the need for one.

Oh ok. I hope you will have more luck with someone else.

Just an idea:
Install and test generic bms software on your PC.
If one works → You found it.
But I have no idea if this may destroy the communication if you use random software…

I hope someone else has a better idea.

I wish you luck

Marc

These are a common PACE or similar BMS like PBMS, I’ve worked with them a lot. The LCD and button layout is a tell-tale. There is also another similar cheap BMS that comes in batteries like these, i have the software for both if you can’t get it elsewhere.

Don’t confuse SOH with SOC.
You will find the SOH (state of heath, not SOC, state of charge) will drop in this BMS randomly, and too fast.

The idea behind SOH is that you decrement the SOH counter when certain events occur such as 100% SOC, 0% SOC, high current, low temp, etc etc. If you decrement the counter correctly, this would ideally track the capacity as it diminishes over time, and prevent you trying to put say 120Ah into an old battery that can now only take say 90Ah.

As SOH decreases, the available capacity (or at least the apparent available capacity) decreases, so with a SOH of 50%, your SOC will drop from 100% to 0% after only 50% of your amp-hours have been drained.
The issue is that this happens far too fast in some BMS brands. I’ve seen one battery (that looked exactly like your one) that was losing about 0.75% per day from the SOH and therefore was apparently full to empty in minutes. The cells were actually in good condition, just the BMS was useless.

You mention both SOH and SOC concepts, so i’m not sure what you are saying about your battery, but if it doesn’t charge to 100% SOC (the number reported in the LCD) by the time the voltage is ~56v, you should take it back and demand that MM calibrates the shunt. If the vendor won’t take action you will have to threaten using the CGA.

These batteries generally arrive not calibrated, as the BMS is slapped in them and shipped, and often just set to 50% when the cells might have been delivered from the cell manufacturer at 65%, so they are not accurate or precise from the get-go.
To get them to show the actual SOC, you need to set the SOC in the software - message me if you need the software. This gives you accuracy at one point, but not over time or charge. For this, you must calibrate the shunt.
FYI: you might know this but for completeness; The shunt measures how much current is flowing in/out of the battery (amps), and by keeping track of this over time (hours), you can know amp-hours (ie capacity, aka SOC)

You can set the calibration on the shunt in software, for both charge and discharge. I can almost guarantee that MM don’t update the firmware, or calibrate the shunts.

There are a number of issues with the BMS. They are underpowered from a CPU point of view, and we have seen situations in stacks of 3 to 6 batteries where the master BMS (in your case the top one) requests updates from the other BMS units (by number, as determined by the red DIP switch settings), but some BMS units, some of the time, are busy processing messages on the bus and don’t respond. This leads to all kinds of issues, such as the pack SOC (sent from the master BMS to the Victron/GX/Growatt/Etc) jumping up/down - for example if the batteries are at 50, 55, 45 and 60%, the master should send “53” to the GX (210/4), but if the 60% bms doesn’t respond, the master sends 38, then next round (about 20 seconds later) gets a reply from that BMS and goes back to sending 53.
This also happens with current. Each BMS ‘requests’ a certain current, say 40A, so the master should say “160A” to the inverter/GX, but it will sometimes jump down to 120A if one BMS fails to report back.

You can get horrible crashes with these BMS - especially when the BMS counts down too slowly under discharge (due to the lack of accurate calibration of the shunt) so that the Ah counter still says maybe 40Ah, when in fact you are at 10Ah left, and a crash is not far away.
The opposite issue is not so bad … if the counter is counting up too fast under charge, and reaches say 120Ah (for a 120Ah battery), it will be reporting 100% even though the battery is not full and the charge is still flowing. However, this depends on your mppt - if you have a Growatt and are using comms, the battery master BMS will tell the growatt to stop charging (“Give me zero amps - i’m full”), and your battery is now at say 80%, but reporting 100%, and asking for zero amps - and will never get fully charged.
If your mppt is working on voltage, it will keep charging and might eventually get to a full charge.
Another situation is that your battery is full, but still saying less than 100% (ie charge counter is counting too low) - here your mppt is still ramming the charge in (the BMS is saying “I’m at 80%, give me all you have (but not more than 100a)”) and your cells are at 3.65. The over-cell voltage alarm will go, and the BMS will panic and send a high voltage back to the mppt, forcing it off. The BMS then resets and asks for charge again, the mppt charges, and again the alarm is raised. After the third loop, the SOC is force-reset to 100%, the SOH is decremented (because we just shortened the life of the cells by putting them over-voltage 3 times) and the situation calms down.

Another issue with some of these BMS units is that with a particular firmware, instead of reporting the average SOC of the pack (back to the inverter/GX/etc) they report the lowest SOC in the pack on discharge, and the highest on charge, so your pack is charging, gets to 100%, the mppt backs off, the pack starts to discharge a tiny bit, and because the pack is not balanced (ie one is at 100%, but one is at 90%) the master BMS now reports 90% to the inverter/GX and suddenly charging starts again.

In short, these BMS units need very careful setup and tuning, and even then, they don’t compensate very well for temperature, the Peukert exponent, or any of the tens of minor factors that distort the actual amount of charge that is stored in the battery. But … they are cheap, and make for nice margins, and combined with B grade cells, the weakness of the BMS is somewhat masked by the performance of the cells.

If you don’t already have the software, ask MM for it - i’m sure he will refuse, as this ensures you wont be able to see the cell difference (which is a good tell for poorly matched cells, or B grade cells). Seeing what is happening in the BMS from time to time is critical, otherwise you only have 1 metric to go on - is the battery delivering about the right number of kwh from full to empty. With the software, you can see the difference in SOH and SOC between batteries, the difference in cell voltage across the 16 cells, and things like alarm logs.
You can also reset your SOH to 100%, and reset all your SOC’s to the same value (which they should be if the shunts are calibrated, and the batteries have similar internal resistances, and the batteries have been in a pack for a couple of cycles)

Also, not wanting to nit pick if your setup is only temporary, but heat shrink is cheap, and having red heat shrink on the end of negative cables, and black on the positives, is asking for trouble when a “helper” puts the wrong lug in the wrong place and gets showered in molten copper.

It looks like you have the data cable for the RS232 port, but if not i’ve got those too, and USB to serial adapters.

I would very very very much doubt these are anything like a pylontech.

@Marc_HD Its all just serial, so unless they use a terrible chip, you generally can’t break them.

RP>

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Wow, thank you so much RoarNZ for the care and knowledge you put into your answer to my request for help!

I don’t think I am confusing SoC and SoH. I use the vendor supplied battery monitoring software and USB/Serial cable. The software shows both SoC and SoH (and every individual cell’s voltage, and logs). MM showed no reluctance to let me have the software or data cable, but I am pretty sure they did no calibration before handing them over to me, or update firmware. I got the software from them on a USB stick which looks like it might also have firmware on it but I am reluctant to fiddle. The only setting I have knowingly changed in the software is setting the CANbus protocol to Victron.

The SoC reaches 100% almost every day. SoH was ~70% on purchase in May than now, and moved in one jump one day to 89% on one battery and 92% on the other. Those SoH numbers have not changed now in months and they are the cause of my concern. The vendor told me they would sort themselves out with a few full charges to 56.8V, but I think the BMS prevents that.
They also offered that I can bring the batteries back to get them resolved, but that’s a painful exercise from my distant point of view.

I am not getting any of the jumping-around or other pathologies you have seen elsewhere. I have observed the Victron GX showing the average SoC across the two batteries so it seems that is as designed. The two batteries each independantly toggle their CCL when they approach full so the Victron can continue charging the not-full one. I understand it would be better if they used CVL to signal approaching full, but they don’t. As well as toggling CCL they also flip a FET so they just don’t take any more.

I agree with you on the battery interlink DC cable colours, and also the supplied inverter-battery cables are thinner than I would like.

I will message you re software.

As far as i know, and based on a few years of working with these and other BMS suppliers, SOH never goes up.

You can reset it, if you have the password. PM me or look up my employer if you need the password.

This will allow you to reset the SOH to 100% - the only downside to doing this is AFAIK is that on an older battery you might then be telling BMS to tell the Victron that it can charge the full 110Ah, when maybe it should only be charging 104Ah.

Based on what i’ve been seeing coming into the country lately, you might actually have 105Ah cells - so you might want to do a full charge and discharge on a well known load (like a 2kw bar heater that does not have a thermostat) or even borrow a Tenma load tester if you can find one, and work out how much capacity your cells really have. If you know the real capacity of your cells, your BMS will tell the correct SOC to the Victron, and the Victron will then stop discharging at the correct place.

Its common to see 120Ah cells that test at 132Ah, but its also common to see batteries customers have purchased from TradeMe/FaceBook/etc that claim X and test out at 0.8X.

Its a lot like fake SD cards - if they are 8gb, but the firmware claims 16gb, they still work fine when you use the first 8gb, but corrupt immeditely when you write the 8.00001th gb of data.

Also, please please post a screenshot of the software showing the voltage on your 16 cells - it will be an interesting data point for me, as i often end up helping customers that are not mine, so seeing whats out there really helps me.

Cell delta (the difference between the highest cell and the lowest cell) is a very important number. It varies depending on load, and SOC, but it can tell you a lot about the cells.

RP>

Thanks Roar NZ,

Here’s a screenshot showing the 16 cells of one battery. V_DIFF at the
bottom of the left column shows as 0.007 V which I had not flagged as a
problem. This under a very low load by our standards- late evening, no
pumps just lights, laptop, fridge & freezer. Off grid, so no outside
inputs at night.

I have your company default email. I can email you logs from the BMS
going back most of the day (overcast & rain, few sunny breaks).

Ngā mihi and Best regards,

Graham

mobile: +64 27 275 4396

(attachments)

My experience with your particular BMS ends about here, but some googling shows your battery could be based on a Narada battery (Narada Power Source Co. Ltd)

Your bms software states “Family_BMS”, but that might not mean that the BMS is actually “Family_BMS”
There might be some connection with Tian Power

What happens frequently in China is that a factory produces X hardware for brand Y under contract. The factory has the files to produce the PCBs, so then it produces an unlabelled X’ for a group of distributors, labelling it with another name(s). Its kind of like open source, without the collaboration and feedback of bug fixes and improvements.

The result is that you get a wide range of products that look almost the same, same button layout, same LCD manufacturer, same menu system.

With a BMS produced with this kind of lineage/breeding, it will almost always be a communication system based on RS485, with the same registers storing the same parameters. Because of this, a lot of BMS software will at least read the registers of many different BMS hardware, but all bets are off when it comes to writing / updating the registers.

WRT your 7mV difference - that’s ok, but under 5A of load in the 50-90% SOC range, a good battery will be under 5 mV difference, but certainly better than some i’ve seen.

The biggest issue I can see with your battery is that you have paid for 110Ah, but you only have ~90Ah. If your battery is around 2 years old, this is to be expected, but if its new I would be asking some questions.
Also, what is your inter-battery difference in SOC?
Your inter-battery voltage difference should be zero if have been in a pack for a while, and they are cabled together with good cables. Any difference between the apparent voltages of each battery in the pack should be just the accuracy error in the volt-meter, typically less than 50mV (0.05V)

RP>