In the Orion XS manual it shows the input for dc/dc to be the engine starting battery with the alternator connected and the output to the auxiliary or in my case the house bank.
This means the alternator charge has to pass through the starting bank before charging the house bank?
Would it make more sense to have the alternator connected to the house bank (LiFePo4) and then use the house bank as the input for the Orion XS to the starter bank. My alternator is 200 amp.
I am planning to install a 920ah LiFePo4 house bank. I can make the engine starting bank a LiFePo4 battery as well or an AGM.
Any suggestions on what would be the right way to do this installation.
The reason it is done the way shown is that most alternators are not designed to charge lithium, they are designed to charge lead acid. They have a single charging voltage of typically 14.5V, lead acid can be kept at this once charged. Lithium must not. Some modern vehicles vary the alternator output voltage down to 12.5V, the lithium would never charge. If the lithium BMS disconnects suddenly the alternator directly charging lithium can get fried. The DC to DC prevents this.
The other solution that I and others have used is to modify the alternator with an external controller such as as Wakespeed WS500 or an Arco Zeus which can then control lithium charging properly. The alternator usually requires internal mods.
The alternators I am using from my main engine and my DC generator, both use external alternators. I currently hav Balmar MC-214, but looking at changing to the MC-218. The 214 is extensively user programmable, however the MC-218 has a lithium program. I looked at the Arco-Zeus Zeus and the Wakespeed WS 500. Those look really cool, pricey to buy 2 of them.
I believe both of my alternators has protection for accidental disconnect. I am not opposed to running the alternator through a lead acid starting battery. My main question with that is: Will the voltage regulator see the fully charged lead acid and not give the lithium everything it can take? Or will the Orion XS make sure the regulator can see the acceptance of the lithium batteries?
Ludo, Thanks for your reply. I have not purchased the Orion XS test, but I did read through the manual twice. I made reply above to pwfarnell’s comment.
I am a little confused with how the Orion turns on (the ignition makes sense, however I have a generator and a 50hp Perkins). What is the d+ connected to the h signal input, leaving the I open do?
Also I have a 400watt wind generator that uses a custom built charge controller, it will divert energy to a ceramic heat sink when the batteries are fully charged. When it switches from divert back to the batteries (specifically if the wind is blowing 25+ knots) it could potentially cause a 400 volt spike for a few seconds. This would be absorbed easily with a lead acid battery, but could be problematic with a lithium. I was told this detail by the builder of the charge controller. I will probably buy a new charge controller made for this unit to work with lithium, however, I could use the same charge controller and connect the wind generator to the starting battery that would then be connected to the lithium. I’m thinking this should solve the potential voltage spike issue.
Like any set up, if the battery is full and the alternator regulator is at its max voltage, any load on the system will reduce the voltage a bit causing the regulator to increase the current to recover the voltage, thus supplying the load. So yes, it will work, which is why Victron show it like this.
The only issue I’m having with this set up is my alternator can put our 200 amps and the Orion XS is only capable of 50 amps, so I would have to use multiple units. Is that correct?
When the Orion XS is hooked up DC to DC does the charge amperage/voltage only flow in 1 direction? Example if the alternators are connected to the AGM starting batteries, but the solar MPPT and wind generator regulators are connected to the lithium bank, can the solar/wind charging get to the starting bank?
Another question regarding the Orion XS. Is it possible to install 2 of them between 2 batteries. With 1 of the units going from Lithium bank to AGM and another one going from the AGM bank to the Lithium bank? My wind generator can produce 400 watts and when the batteries are charge the energy is diverted to a ceramic heat sink. The manufacturer is recommending that I not connect them to a Lithium bank because the switch over from the heat sink back to the batteries can create a big voltage spike, that old make the BMS shut down. I am going to already have an Orion XS connected from my lithium to the AGM because I want my primary charging to go directly to the Lithium batteries.
Yes you can but you need to he very careful how the settings are applied to start charging. For example battery 1 gets charged from source 1 and its voltage rises so Orion 1 starts to charge battery 2. The voltage increases on battery 2 so Orion 2 starts to charge battery 1. What happens next is unpredictable. Orion 2 could end up turning on and off repeatedly.
A bidirectional DC to DC charger avoids this issue.
I have had a further thought about your question after another post showing reverse facing Orions. The primary Orion goes from the lead acid starter battery to the lithium batteries. The secondary Orion goes from the lithium to the starter battery and really is a battery maintainer/ trickle charger. If you have a standard dumb alternator that typically runs with an output voltage between say 13.8V and 14.5V when charging the lithiums, then you set the output voltage of the secondary Orion to day 13.6V. Therefore, even if the secondary Orions tries to charge the starter battery while the lithiums are being charged no current will flow because the starter battery is at a higher voltage.
The main reason I’ve seen for connecting the source for the Orion XS to the starter battery instead of directly to the alternator is that a LiFePO₄ BMS can abruptly cut off the charge circuit which can result in a spike. If the circuit is routed through the starter battery, the starter battery functions as a capacitor, absorbing the spike and preventing any component damage on the source side of the XS.
Most BMS do not throttle the charge. It’s either on or off, nothing in between.
Below is the email I received from Dragon Fly Energy. They make the Wakespeed voltage regulator. This will be my planned installation for everything except the wind generator. Still trying to figure out, how I want to do it. I can buy a battery isolator regulator That is designed to charge 2 separate banks even if they are lithium/agm. The feature is that it can divert the load to the ceramic heat sink when both batteries are fully charged and hopefully if there is a voltage spike when the divert is off the AGM can absorb that with out shutting down the BMS on the lithium.
My preference, at this point, would be the WS500PRO with Bluetooth, along with a WS500-PH wiring harness, along with alternator and battery temperature sensors for each alternator.
The WS500PRO allows you to configure each regulator to support its alternator based on the needs of the alternator and the batteries. The two regulators can be chained via network cable (CAT5) to each other, then a crossover cable to connect to the Victron system. Note that crossover cable allows us to go from our CiA313 pinout to Victron’s proprietary pinout. You’ll also want to be sure to use a Wakespeed data terminator on the empty RJ45 jack on one of the two regulators. I believe that you can get the crossover cable and data terminator through Fisheries.
You’ll want to make sure that the profile you pick is correct for the batteries being used. The app (downloadable from the App Store or Google Play, depending on whether you are using an iPhone or an Android device) will allow you to ensure that the regulators have the latest firmware and feature lots of configuration options from convenient pulldown menus. Pretty simple to use and database driven, so they offer really smart charging. Please note that with any lithium system, we can’t completely eliminate the possibility of disconnects and resulting load dumps, so we strongly recommend using an alternator protection device like the APM12 from Balmar to limit the possibility of damage due to disconnects. The Orions are perfect for charging the starting batteries. Sounds like a really good system.