Using our 15kVA Quattros, the maximum system size is a 180kVA three phase system. Which then consists of four units on each of the three phases: 12 units in total.
When using smaller models, there is a maximum of five units in parallel, on each of the three phases: 15 units in total. For example, using 10kVA Quattros, the maximum system size is a 150kVA three phase system.
We’ve designed a system for the R&D department of a large manufacturing company who specifically requested Victron components for a project to not only clean up dirty utility power, but also provide UPS functionality in the event the grid goes down. As is becoming more common in the USA, brownouts and voltage sags plague this facility, even though it’s only three years old and in a large, modern metropolitan area. So to remedy this issue, we will have 9x Quattro 10kVA units in charge-only mode on the “input” side and another 9x Quattro 10kVA units in inverter-only mode on the “output” side.
The current plan is two run two VE.Bus inverter groups, each with nine Quattro 10k’s. The charge-only inverter group would be on a separate VE.Bus connected to the Cerbo GX via an MK3-USB adapter. There will be a single battery bank of Pytes V5° batteries and we’ve tested (on a smaller system) this and enabled DVCC for the second inverter group. Thank you @mpvader for recently adding this functionality to Venus OS!!
Question: The guide linked above says 15 Quattro 10k units is the maximum supported by Victron. Would VE.Bus System Configurator allow me to have 18x units on the same bus and assign them, even if it’s not supported? Is 15 units a hard limit, recommended limit, or otherwise? Has anyone tried this?
Its a pitty Victron can’t offer you large system designs a simulator for you to test your theories but well aware of how hard this would be to do just due to the Versatility of Victron and the mad ways you guys think of to design systems in all different permutations.
OGPS
(Ed @ Off-Grid Power Systems - offgridps.com)
3
You’re not wrong, but I don’t look at it that way. Through various conversations over the years with Victron sales managers, Johannes, and even Matthijs, it’s pretty clear to me that Victron’s focus is not on large installations, especially in the USA. Here, they’ve been content with marine, RV, and small off-grid installations. We don’t even have the (“legal”) capability for grid interactivity, ESS, in the USA. So in all fairness, I wouldn’t expect Victron to spend resources building such a simulator given my perception of the markets they want to play in. And also, I’m specifically asking about something that is not supported. All-in-all, Victron spend a lot of time and money on the software side of their business and I’m very grateful for that. For the VAST majority of the problems my business need to solve, Victron is an awesome solution. For grid-tie work in North America, Victron is unfortunately not a player. But for off-grid systems, they have an amazing variety of products.
Even if it’s not supported to run 18x inverters in a three-phase environment, I’m still going to try it But, if it doesn’t work then I can fall back to my dual VE.Bus approach.
I’d be interested to know either way to be honest even though I’ll never do something like this and I think we all know just because it’s not supported doesn’t mean it doesn’t work
I have poked the bear, let’s see if someone chimes in
OGPS
(Ed @ Off-Grid Power Systems - offgridps.com)
6
I’ll certainly report back what I’ve learned. I’m fortunate that we have customers who need such strange configurations so I can push the limits of what Victron supports and can share what we learn on this community.
My 2 cents… It won´t work well depending on how bad the grid is. You cannot setup 18 inverters on a single VE-bus wher 9 are in charging mode and the other 9 in inverter mode… That demands for two separate VE-bus systems as far as I know, though haven’t tried it.. As you said USB-MK3 can do that second VE-bus for you on a single Cerbo gx for monitoring the whole site in one VRM ID.
Now if you put the 18 as a single system… The software accepts it… but you are clearly outside Victrons design instructions (probably warranty too) and over time depending how bad the grid is you will wear out the AC-in relays as over time some get more resistance than others due to sparking while opening and closing all the time.
It is best to go for the two ve-bus systems approach in this case and have the charging system accept a very wide range of AC-in voltage so that it won’t often disconnect/reconnects. Than the other 9 inverters in Inverter only mode will provide clean power to customer and after 5 years you change the roles and use the ac-in relays that are still new in case the bad grid has worn out the 5 years used AC-in relays….
And I’m with @AvB in the previous post: two systems with own GX. After x years change the roles. Make one GX the battery master (I would say the grid side) and use Node red and a virtual battery at the clean side to exchange the relevant values (batt. voltage, SOC, temperature, etc.) between the the two systems.
I was going to say “you can use MPII’s for the clean side”, but that kinda conflicts with the changing roles after a few years… Silly me.
OGPS
(Ed @ Off-Grid Power Systems - offgridps.com)
9
There won’t be any AC input connected to the inverter only inverter group. And, I forgot the main reason why I needed to split the units into two different inverter groups in the first. I need a charge-only inverter group to take in the dirty power and output DC to the bus. I don’t want the inverter only inverters to be connected at all to the grid. Even if I could build an 18 unit VE.Bus system, that’s not what I want to do in the end. I’ll just say that I have so much to do that I sometimes forget why I designed something the way I did At least I thought about it right the first time.
So, while the original reason for this topic is moot, it would be still be interesting to know if such a large inverter system could be built.
Redundant power electronics is a growing market. Batteries are still the main costs a few extra inverters can be worth the business behind the systems. I would wire all the units to AC-in an AC-out and choose to activate one system as charger only and the other system as inverter only. By the way two cerbo gx’s can listen to the same canbus battery. Virtual battery is optional. Nodered indeed is a great solution to automate things and show a nice dashboard. An ATS in the system would automatically switch the customer over to the working system in case of problems.
I like to use Victron, but at some point you got to consider other alternatives. Theres lots of UPS manufacturers available, i personally know and worked with APC/Schneider units.
For example the Symmetra PX is available as a 96kW unit, one 42U rack for the UPS itself, another for the batteries, available for roughly 54k. All you need is an input and output power distribution with a bypass.
18x MP 48/10k would be roughly 32k, but then you got no batteries, no DC or communication cabling, no racks, and are using the MPs in a way that is outside of the intended use case, also very likely with a lower efficiency than an actual UPS.
Im interested to see if your plan works out, but i think theres better (or more economical) ways to achieve your goal. At least consider them
Me three, this will shake up the whole industry if they come in at a competitive price point
OGPS
(Ed @ Off-Grid Power Systems - offgridps.com)
15
I come from 25+ years in IT and datacenter infrastructure and worked for Hewlett-Packard back before they were split into many pieces. My head of operations was a customer of mine. Both of us tried talking this customer out of this solution and towards a solution we don’t even sell. They wanted Victron. So we’re giving them Victron I even suggested an Eaton 3-phase power conditioner and then Victron inverters. They only wanted Victron. I won’t refuse the sale
To be honest, I’m quite surprised that a facility with such high consumption would opt for an LV system.
What’s wrong with the native HV systems from GE?
OGPS
(Ed @ Off-Grid Power Systems - offgridps.com)
17
Since the main loads they want to protect are computer servers and networking equipment, I suggested Vertiv/Emerson/Liebert. Power conditioning and UPS in one unit.
But, if it doesn’t work then I can fall back to my dual VE.Bus approach.
