Home Battery Backup with portable generator

While I see most people gravitate to the Multiplus II for split phase home install, I’m a bit surprised not to see more split phase Quattro systems.

I currently have a home backup ( critical circuit ) system which includes a 10 circuit manual transfer switch and outside inlet for 30A 220v portable generator.

My plan is to replace the transfer switch with a critical circuit sub panel:

• New 10 circuit sub panel which includes one 240 circuit for well pump ( 2x120 )
• (2) Victron 48V Quattro 3kVA 120V Inverter 35A Charger - split phase configuration
• EG4 LL-S 48V 300Ah 15.3kWh Fully Loaded Rack Battery Kit
• Victron Cerbo-S GX (Lite) System Controller
• Victron GX Touch 50/70 Display for Cerbo GX
• Victron Lynx Power In - Power Distribution System (M10)

The idea is that when grid goes down ( happens quite frequently around here ) the 15.3kWh battery backup will keep critical circuits going long enough for me to plug in generator or grid comes back. Could be minutes, could be days.

The way I see it, the dual Quattro system makes the most sense. I realize it’s a little more than the Multiplus II, but the second programmable AC-in seems like a huge advantage over a manual or external ATS to switch between grid and portable generator.

I am missing something? I know that the Quattros have a slightly larger idle draw, but other than that I see no disadvantage and I have not seen a ATS as sophisticated as the one built into the Quattro.

Any insights would be appreciated!

fred

Split-phase quattros for backup are working great for me.

Setup

Dual Victron Quattro 48/5000/70-100/100 120V, 100A Autotransformer
Cerbo GX, Victron SmartSolar MPPT 250/100, Victron SmartSolar MPPT 250/70
Victron SmartShunt 500A,
Carlo Gavazzi EM530 Grid Meters,
2 Critical Load Subpanels (50A each)
EG4 Chargeverter with Victron SmartShunt as DC Meter,
All gear installed in 19" in movable rack

12x QCells Q.PEAK DUO XL-G10.3 480W Bifacial, 4s2p + 4s,
Langir Breakers/Disconnects, Custom Combiner Box
3 Custom Unistrut Ground Mounts
220’ underground PVC conduit run to house
44’ PV THHN/THWN2 in EMT conduit inside house

3x EG4-LL v1 with 125A Class T Fuses
300A Class T Fuse in Battery Rack
70V MEGA Fuses on modular Victron Busbar

We build split-phase systems all the time with Quattros. Works just fine. Like Rick, I would suggest an autotransformer unless you can manually balance your 120V loads evenly across the inverters. Consider upgrading from two 3kVA (2400W) inverters to two 5kVA (4000W) inverters. I prefer better batteries, but for backup purposes the EG4 are probably fine. Take a look at Pytes V5° batteries. Much better BMS and fully supported by VenusOS.

Down the road, consider adding solar and you can power your critical loads with juice from the sun :slight_smile:

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Yes, the autotransformer does balance the loads nicely (when inverting).

However, it also brings complications as once it is wired into a house, when the inverters are connected to the grid, the autotransformer is effectively in parallel with the utility transformer. Maybe this can be avoided if you isolate neutrals and grounds in the critical load panel, but then you don’t have a common ground and that’s against code.

My solution is to disconnect the autotransformer neutral when not inverting with a relay. But that’s another conversation.

You’re right about the AT effectively being in parallel with the utility transformer, but I don’t see why that matters. You feed the AT w/o a neutral - it gets L1 from one inverter and L2 from the other and then the AT makes its own neutral with a center tap of the transformer inside the AT. It will essentially just pass through up to 100A on each leg and do no voltage transformation.

The ground relays in the Quattros and AT can be disabled and still make your N-G bond in the main load center (assuming that’s where it is now).

Am I missing something? :slight_smile:

When inverting, no grid on AC-In 1 or 2, the AT is great.

I disconnect the AT neutral when on grid, and you are right, I can pass through up to 100A on the L1 and L2 no problem. There is some power wasted doing that, about 30 VA, but real power appears to be only a few watts. Keeps the coils warm I guess.

This is a complicated discussion without a drawing, I’ll see what I have when I get home.
I made certain decisions on how I’ve wired into the house that are impacting the problem, probably unique to me. All ground relays disabled.

The issue with having the autotransformer in parallel with the utility transformer is that both will try to balance L1/L2 and weird neutral currents flow because of lengths of wire involved.

In my case, the AT was trying to balance the other half of my 400A service (2x 200A)! Not good.

Geez. All the Youtube videos make this look so easy! :wink:

I’m learning a lot listening to you guys. Thank You.

I have gotten as far as a scale diagram of my “backup board” and the equipment in my shopping list ( except the AT you speak of ). Next I have to figure out where all the black, red and white wires go!

blank-to-scale.pdf (1.3 MB)

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We’ve exceeded my ability to be confident in my answer about this. However, I’ll run it by my EE and try to get a better understanding. I will say that we don’t bother with an AT on systems that have utility service because the majority of the time the utility will be available to take on any phase overloads within the bounds of its switching ability. We do use ATs in all our off-grid builds. So, the use case of having the AT inline with the utility is not something I’ve thought much about. I may have to retract my advice above to use an AT :slight_smile:

For North American off-grid, ATs are a great win for split-phase, as they provide maximum power out of the two inverters. What’s not to like?

Just stay away from 28A of neutral current. In practice, I’ve never seen anything that unloaded. Sure, you can contrive something with a two hairdryers and a heater on one leg, but that just doesn’t happen.

ATs are magical things, and their powers are sometimes mysterious!
Thanks for the great conversation.

OK, I had some time to finish my backup board diagram and am submitting to you folks for approval and grading. :wink:

I didn’t draw in the coms connections - easy. My plan is to use this diagram to discuss with electrician whom I will hire just to move the critical circuits from main to sub. I could probably do it, but thinking maybe I shouldn’t. I feel comfortable with the rest of the install.

I didn’t include ATS. Seems that is still under review.

The critical circuits shown are what I have been using for years w/generator backup. Currently that generator is a 2023 Ford f150 Powerboost w/7.2kW generator.

I have to say it’s kinda fun going back to school @ 71.

Thanks!

backup-v2-to-scale.pdf (1.3 MB)

Ok, I like drawings!

Recommendations
(1) Put a Class T fuse and holder as close to the batteries as possible.
Probably in the 200-300A range depending on your max wattage.
This is to prevent a doomsday scenario where the breakers on the batteries do not trip.

(2) Be sure the battery cables can handle the continuous DC current. Welding cable is popular. You are looking at 2/0 or 3/0, but again it depends on your max wattage. Fuse should be rated for at least the cable ampacity. You and the electrician need to check all of these numbers before buying anything.

(3) Ideally, your subpanel would also have a main breaker rated to the wiring between the Multipluses and the panel. EDIT: Nope, backfeed 50A breaker.

(4) You don’t show Neutrals or Grounds, but it is critical that the neutrals on both inverters and the panel are all bonded together. You never want a floating neutral situation. Specifically the AC-In neutrals on both inverters should be bonded together, and the AC-out
neutrals should be bonded together, separately. For grounds, the chassis grounds for all metal boxes should go to the panel ground.
There’s probably other stuff, feel free to ask questions.

Thank Rick!

I am going to modify the Lynx Power In to accept T Class fuses.

Plan on ordering cables to length from Current Connected.

I thought the 50A backfeed breaker in the sub panel is the main breaker for the panel?

I did not add ground and neutral bars yet. From my YouTube classes, the professors show neutrals and grounds from AC1-Out and AC2-Out to be on separate bars. They say the Quattros will be programmed for bonding in the units?

Thanks again!

fred

Current Connected is great.

Sorry, misunderstood about the 50A backfeed breaker, that is correct.
I forgot your configuration, I look at a lot of these.
Ground bonding is a challenging topic.

Also try diysolarforum.com for lots more general advice.

Thank you again.

Yes, I am a Will Prowse groupie. This is a considerable investment for me so I’m trying to CYA as much as possible.

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It’s a situation where you can read and read, and ask questions, and get answers, and still buy the wrong stuff! I don’t blame you for the CYA. I certainly have my share of stuff I don’t use anymore.

I still haven’t forgotten about the dual transformer question. My EE is coming to the store tomorrow so I’ll run this by him. But, I scribbled up a simple diagram to illustrate my point. See the attachment:
scan.pdf (68.0 KB)

I don’t see this as an issue, but I’ll get a second opinion :slight_smile:

Neutral-ground bonding is tricky and can differ depending on the norms of your local jurisdiction. Here in Ohio, our load centers are indoors, usually in a basement, and the N-G bonding occurs in the main load center. NEC code says it must occur at the point of disconnect, which is our load center. Other parts of the country sometime have external disconnects or might split the utility feed into two sub-feeders before going into load centers. This is likely where an existing N-G bond is made.

If you plan to purchase from a distributor who doesn’t provide detailed wiring diagrams with examples of where and how to perform N-G bonding, then find another distributor. Lots of sellers get by selling to van builders and RVers because they don’t have to fully understand these things.

Please, first check to see if you have a LOCAL, knowledgeable Victron distributor who likes to work with DIYers and can give you good guidance. If you pay them for a little of their time, you will save weeks of frustration, research, or guessing.

We recently had a customer that purchased a system from us for a new off-grid home they built. He followed our wiring diagrams closely, but he added a few extra disconnects and components on the AC side that cost him nearly a week of trying to solve a weird phantom load. Those are almost always neutral-ground bonding issues. Right before I jumped in the truck to go see him in WV, he found the culprit: a bonded neutral in an extra disconnect he didn’t tell us about :slight_smile: If he told me he ad-libbed some add-ons, I would have honed in on those when I was trying to help him troubleshoot over the phone.

In your use case, the inverter default configuration with ground relay enabled is probably sufficient so long as you don’t bond in the critical loads panel.

YouTube is a good place to learn amateur-level knowledge from amateurs. I’m not knocking that. It’s a good way to understand at a high-level what’s possible. But understand that most of these guys are in it for the clicks and affiliate income. Of course it’s “easy” they say or you won’t click through the links. And ripping off the lid of a battery and checking if low-temp disconnects work with a little ice water is not testing. The functioning of a BMS is the single most important part of a battery, especially if you use closed-loop communication. Almost all of the “budget” batteries use off-the-shelf BMS’s that all seem to have the same shortcomings. I’m not naming names but I have tried them all. Pylontech and Pytes both make their own BMS’s and have worked with Victron to make for a fully-supported configuration.

Put another way, there is a reason that the retailer that owns EG4 electronics sells both Victron Energy products and Pytes batteries (for example), in addition to their own EG4 brand. I noticed CC is now selling Pytes, too.

I’m sorry to be so preachy, but I don’t want to see you spinning your wheels or asking questions on a forum about something that could have been avoided before you purchase anything.

Now that I’m off my soap box, I looked at your diagram. Why do you have a SmartShunt between the battery and DC buss with batteries that supposedly communicate with the Victron system? Oh wait, it’s because you show a Cerbo-S and not a Cerbo, which has a BMScan communication ports that the Cerbo-S doesn’t.

My suggestion, for what it’s worth: Get a Cerbo GX MKII and better batteries. VenusOS 3.6 fixes any issues with the second CANbus ports. Eliminate the shunt if you use good batteries. You might also consider using a Lynx PowerIn with Class T fuses to bring the batteries to the DC buss. We usually recommend paralleling one pair of batteries together at the terminals and run a set cables from that pair to the DC buss. If you think the three batteries are all you will ever need then just running the one set of cables like you show is fine.

Another alternative is use really cheap 48V batteries (without canbus ports) and use the battery monitor built-in to the Quattros. The built-in battery monitor works just fine in systems that don’t have DC loads and sources other than MPPTs and batteries, such as yours.

I hope this helps. I don’t mean to pee in your cereal bowl. Have a great rest of your weekend!

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Wow! Good stuff Ed! And not preachy at all.

So I modified my plan with the Cerbo GX and The Lynx Power In T-Class. Great suggestions! I’m still working through the wiring and haven’t quite figured out the battery situation. I’m studying!! And listening to folks who know a lot more than me - like you.

This is v.3.2 I figure by v.4.5 I would be able to fill up my shopping cart. Thanks again!

fred

This is my portable generator. 2023 F150 Powerboost, 7.2 kW inverter/generator 30A/220

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Very cool. I’m excited to see vehicles that do this and/or support vehicle-to-grid (V2G), vehicle-to-home (V2H), etc. You’ll sometimes see it called V2X to capture all the permutations. We sell a product meant for grid-interactive use (Victron isn’t there in the USA…yet) that also has options for both AC level 2 EV charging and level 3 DC “fast” charging. The software will support V2H once more vehicles start coming to market. I used “fast” in quotation marks because it’s limited to 20kWh, but that’s still more than 2x the speed of most homes’ level 2 chargers.

Things I’m eager to see in 2025 (even if it’s Q4):

  1. A UL1741SB compliant MultiPlus or Quattro for the US market
  2. ESS and grid codes for the USA
  3. A Victron EVSE for North America - this would be a level 2 charger but integrate nicely with the Victron ecosystem, allowing for automated charging based on conditions of the ESS

WRT your system, I meant for you to use a Lynx Power in along with a Lynx Distributor. Use the Class T fuses for the batteries and MEGA/AMG fuses in the LD for the inverters.

Send me an email and I’ll share a wiring diagram with you. You’ll have to do some simple sleuthing to contact me offline because we can’t post personally-indentifiable information on the Community, and I respect that. It would at least get you most of the way there in your planning.

Is that a Lightning or EcoBoost?