Reviving this thread from the old site:
Victron - how about a solution?
4mA RCCB’s are the root of this problem. The standard used to be 40mA - which the Multis were designed for.
I think your only solution for this would be an isolating transformer.
https://www.beama.org.uk/resourceLibrary/the-rcd-handbook---guide-to-the-selection-and-application-of-residual-current-devices.html
Page 22, note 2:-
10 mA RCDs are associated with highly sensitive equipment and high risk areas such as school laboratories
and in hospital areas.
Thus using 4mA RCD’s in an RV park is an incorrect application of these devices…
2 Likes
The problem in many cases is an accumulation of capacitive leakage which is a function of modern EMI filters and other devices which have capacitive leakage currents. They reduce the trip margin and can sometimes cause nuisance tripping. I am surprised by the low trip margin some people are speaking of.
In houses the load can be spread across several circuits but in the marine environment often a boat is plugged into one dock outlet. In this case the capacitive leakage cannot be segregated. We sometimes use a device that produces an equal and opposite phase angle to the capacitive leakage. It produces an inductive phase angle without a physical inductor as it uses an “electronic inductor”. It does not reduce the safety margin at all of the GFCI and works in a similar way to capacitive power factor correction for inductive loads. Instead of using capacitors to correct lagging power factor (inductive loads) it uses an “electronic inductor” to reduce capacitive leading power factor currents. The nuisance trip currents are usually capacitive.
If you want to nullify the effect of the capacitive current in your ground cable you may consider one of these. B-Stop installation - B-Stop. You can preset the device to null out either 5 or 10mA of leakage current.
They are produced in Italy and the inventor is quite brilliant. It is an elegant engineering solution to a difficult problem and the beauty is in the apparent simplicity of the solution that required innovative lateral thinking to resolve.
I realise it sounds like snake oil so I have written an engineering explanatory paper to outline the principal of operation of this device if anyone is suffering from severe insomnia and is at all interested.
3 Likes
Has anyone installed the B-Stop? If yes, what are your results?
We have used them. They work well. Refer to this location for more information and download the whitepaper to understand how it works. https://sieltec.com.au/nuisance-tripping-fix
I would try it if it were available for the US (120v and US plug).
@skopper Please read this paper https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/98d0535e-71f8-4374-894c914625b85eda/downloads/RCD%20nuisance%20tripping%2C%20causes%20and%20an%20innovativ.pdf?ver=1721783524558. and if you are convinced please contact the Italian company and ask for one to try. I dont think they have them in 120Volt yet but I do know they are working on them. They can certainly already handle 50 or 60Hz. We have done measurements with them and the effectiveness of them is immediately obvious. When measured with a Fluke 368 meter the trip margin increases by the 5 or 10mA you nominate when installing.
It is the difference between constant nuisance tripping and having a happy life. 
1 Like
On our boat we also have a Multiplus-II 2x120V with a Bluesea 50A ELCI between the shorepower inlet and the Multiplus. It always trips the ELCI when shorepower is first connected. The only workaround seems to be:
- Turn off the Multiplus
- Throw all the breakers on the output side of the Multiplus so there are no loads on it
- Throw the breaker between the batteries and the Multiplus so there is nothing to charge or invert from
- Connect shore power
- Turn on the ELCI
- Turn on the Multiplus (switch position 1 - invert/charge)
- Wait a minute while the Multiplus comes online - the charger green light turns on and you hear the relays switching)
- Turn on the breakers on the load side one by one
- Wait and minute or two for all the loads to turn back on
- Turn on the breaker between the batteries and the Multiplus - at which point it starts to ramp up for a full charge
Everything works fine for days with the various loads on the boat switching on and off as normal (our boat has a lot of different loads: AC units, heaters, fridge, freezer, stove, oven, microwave, laptops, etc) and we never get close to the 50A limits. However sooner or later the ELCI will trip and then we have to repeat the process above again.
@Yachtbird So are you saying that the only solution those of us in the US having this problem is to take the ELCI out of the circuit for the time being and wait for the US version of the B-Stop to be available?
Connecting the multiplus to the grid without the batteries connected is a very risky procedure.
@AnodyneGB Hello Andrew, just to be crystal clear, I would NEVER suggest removing the ELCI to overcome nuisance tripping. The ELCI is absolutely necessary to save lives in case of an unfortunate accident. In Australia we use a 30mA rated RCD. The RCD can trip and still be within specification at 50% of its rating. It mustn’t trip at anything over 30mA. So the minimum it can trip at is 15mA. Boats often are connected to shore power through a single socket meaning the leakage current cannot be spread over several RCDs as it can be in a house. This makes the marine environment more susceptible to nuisance tripping because the leakage cannot be spread over several circuits.
Your switch on sequence may work for you but please understand what happens with the multiplus when it is in inverter mode or not in inverter mode. In inverter mode the ground neutral relay is usually closed. This is so when you are on your boat disconnected from shore power, if you have ELCIs downstream of the mulitplus they will work. That means when the multiplus is in inverter mode, the slight leakage you would expect from the multiplus loads is not seen by the circuit feeding the multiplus. When the multiplus goes out of inverter mode to pass through the mains, the ground neutral relay is opened and now the circuit feeding the multiplus does see the leakage on the output of the multiplus. That is when it will trip. This is not the fault of the mulitplus, as the multiplus has simply removed the leakage on its output when in inverter mode from appearing on the input, a situation that does not happen when it is in pass through mode.
If I were in the US, I would contact Teypra in Italy and ask for when the low voltage version of the B-Stop will be available. In the meantime I would continue to just try to manage the problem as you have been but please do not bypass or remove the ELCI.
Don’t worry - not intending to remove the ELCI - but it does show that the B-Stop is going to be necessary given that we get trips even when there is nothing connected to the multiplus outputs and thus we can be certain there really isn’t a leak in the downstream circuits.
@MeltemiCaz I just saw your post describing the problem on your Oyster. Yes. That is quite a headache. I have worked on similar problems in Australia and have been perplexed because an individual problem cannot be located but the accumulation of capacitive leakage causes the issue. The capacitive leakage by the way is not a fault. Even a long extension lead has a certain amount of capacitive leakage.
We use the B-Stop to cancel out the capacitive current and the results are quite amazing.
We use a Fluke 368 meter to see the low level currents. The result of the B-Stop can be seen immediately and it is an absolutely positive change. It leaves you in no doubt about the outcome. Trip margins are restored and nuisance tripping consequently are no longer a problem.
Perhaps read the technical paper I attached to another post and it may help explain how it works.
Hello Trevor,
I have been reading your posts regarding the B-Stop with great interest. I’ve read the white paper and spoken to Fred, my electrical engineer about the device. You are right, it does sound like snake oil according to Fred. I’ve done quite a bit of reading about earth leakage and the various causes including capacitance leakage and leakage due to surge protectors and the EMI shields in power supplies.
I don’t mind trying the device it you think it will help? You mentioned above that they will lend you a device? How does that work?
Also, it looks like the B-Stop is now distributed by Teypra. Shop - TEYPRA
Are they ones that can lend a unit, if indeed I understood you correctly?
Also, Teypra is selling a data logger. Do you have any experience with this gizmo?
The one issue that none of us are able to make progress on is the repeating times of day when the issue occurs.
Starting approximately 7 weeks ago and continuing for 5 weeks, the RCBO would trip at either 5:14am or 7:14am. About 1 in 4 days there would be no trip.
Beginning two weeks ago, the tripping time moved to 9:53am and once it tripped at 3:53pm. Then about one in four days, no tripping.
We can not find any time-based ship board devices to cause this increase in current leakage and subsequent RCBO tripping. Someone is wondering out loud if the MP-IIs have some sort of time based behavior, but the VE documentation does not talk about this.
As of now, we are willing to try the B-Stop. Do I order from the Teypra web site?
Thanks in advance for your help!
@MeltemiCaz Yes, some things do seem like snake oil if they are not understood, however when understood they are perfectly reasonable.
If the reader of the white paper does not understand inductive or capacitve currents and the phase angle of the current to the voltage in capacitive or inductive circuits, the B-Stop looks like magic (Snake Oil). If they do understand those concepts it looks exactly like power factor correction used by industrial plants that have large inductive loads only on a much smaller scale. Instead of nulling out inductive loads, it is nulling out capacitive loads. Some simple calculations are in the Appendix of my paper to outline exactly some real world numbers of leakage for a single common IEC socket just to emphasise that an accumulation of capacitive leakage current is not a fault. It is just a fact. Actually my calculations for the IEC socket are for a 50hz system so a 60Hz system is in fact even worse. Instead of 0.35mA per socket it is 0.42mA per socket. The problem is worse for 60Hz systems than 50Hz systems because the capacitive reactance is lower.
If Fred would like to discuss any aspect of the white paper please let me know or pass it on to others to critically assess. Always happy for peer review.
Teypra is a electrical design and manufacturing company and they happen to make this very innovative product. I have absolutely no knowledge of their other products like the data logger.
If I gave the impression they would lend a unit I am sorry but they run a manufacturing plant in Italy and just sell stuff to people who need them. We keep some in stock here so we use them for when they are required. So far, it is the only product I know of that can improve the trip margin and solve the issue.
By way of complete disclosure, I have no association with Teypra other than to admire how they tackled this very common and usually very poorly understood problem. I corresponded with the product inventor many times in the past understanding how they tackled the problem. The concept is brilliant and when understood, so simple! I have spent a lot of time coming to terms with the cause and remedy of these types of problems on boats in Australia and understand the frustration of not being able to resolve it. That is why I am mentioning it on the forum.
You may have a periodic event that takes you leakage over the limit so the answer is to improve your “trip margin” so those small variations can be handled without incident.
I hasten to add that this device does not reduce the sensitiviy of the original installation or change the characteristics of the ELCI at all. I am a big fan of ELCIs and they are a very necessary part of any installation. I also hasten to add that if real resistive leakage genuinely exists it does need to be addressed and resolved. The B-Stop is only for the improvement of trip margin when that trip margin is reduced by incidental capacitive effects.
I hope this helps.
1 Like
HI Trevor,
I read your paper again and did some research, and even though I’m not an electrical engineer, it seems to me that the B-Stop is meant to accomplish some of the same benefits as an Static VAR compensator that is used on the electrical grid. I’ve ordered one of the B-Stops. Thanks for the advice!
-
Are you aware of any timer-based or periodic operations in the Multiplus-IIs units that might be the cause of the repeating RCBO trips happening at exactly the same time everyday? BTW, the RCBO trips have most recently been occurring at 9:53 AM PST 3/4 days with the occasional non-trip day. Since November, the trips have moved from 5:14 AM to 7:04 AM to 9:53 AM with two outliers. One was a trip at 3:53 PM and one trip happened at 9:53 AM but also tripped the ELCI once a few weeks ago.
-
Do you have any suggestions for how to measure/observe/record the voltage/sine wave/mA leakage so that I will have the data to review?
I have a Hioki 3282 current leakage meter. And I have a battery powered oscilloscope, but have not used it to measure frequency on the mains before. So no quite sure how to do that without frying the scope.
The website claims that it has “Built-in high-voltage protection module,can tolerate a continuous voltage of up to 400V.” but I just received the unit and have not used it yet.
Any thoughts are appreciated!
@MeltemiCaz Hi Bill, it sounds like you would really like to know what is going on. I can tell you how I would approach this problem.
The Hioki meter is a fine instrument but not nearly as sensitive as it needs to be for this particular job. It is great for general purpose electrical work but no good for your needs. You will not need the oscilloscope either for this job but cool to have it in any case as it is a very handy instrument. I’m afraid the diagnosis of this problem is much simpler than that.
We use a Fluke 368FC meter to measure the small currents we are interested in. The reason many electricians may not have this instrument is it is relatively expensive and not used that often. When it is used however, it is a godsend.
If we assume you have a Fluke 368FC its use is very simple. The ELCI that trips your system will have an active and a neutral passing through it. Simply clamp around both active and neutral conductors that pass through the ELCI. Any imbalance between the active and the neutral is leakage current. The imbalance is going somewhere else and that is the leakage current to ground.
You will measure a certain amount. Let’s say for example the leakage is measured as 10mA. Let’s say you have a 30mA ELCI (I don’t know what the specification is in your part of the world is but in Australia it would be 30mA.). A 30mA ELCI trips at a maximum of 30mA and a minimum of 50% of 30mA = 15mA.
If you measure 10mA with your Fluke 368 and the minimum trip current is 15mA, you have what is called a 5mA “trip margin”. This is how much more leakage you can handle before the ELCI trips.
When the meter is clamped at the ELCI, switch off various breakers at the vessel mains switchboard and see which circuits contribute to that leakage level.
You can test the circuits after the ELCI by clamping the Fluke 369 around active and neutral going to the various devices on your boat. At the switchboard you can clamp the active and neutral of the circuits going through the various breakers and actually see where the majority of leakage current is coming from. Remember you must clamp both active and neutral because you are wanting to measure the difference between the two. If they are equal they will exactly cancel out and the meter will read zero.
If you set the Fluke meter to “MinMax” mode you can see at those times of day when it trips what is happening. You can move it from circuit to circuit to try and find the culprit.
This is a methodical way of measuring and assessing what is happening. Leakage is normal and you will be able to see the various leakage currents contribute to the total at the ELCI. If the B-Stop works on 110volts, when you connect it, you will see an immediate improvement in your trip margin. If you do these checks you will know exactly what is going on and will be able to see what is contributing to the total leakage causing the ELCI to trip. Without a sensitive meter capable of actually measuring these small currents the best you can do is guess.
When you have a meter capable of measuring these small currents, the mystery is removed and the accumulation leading to tripping is logical and better understood.
I hope this helps.
Hi Trevor, yes this is helpful.
I will look into the FLUKE-368 FC. I have a FLUKE 107 (home), 189 (plane), 289 (boat), and a 377FC already, so one more FLUKE won’t surprise my wife. 
I’ve been using the Hioki to measure the leakage. Given all of the electronics, i.e. computers, printers, and other electronic kit, I am seeing a 15-19mA leakage depending on which loads I have in use.
BTW, my boat is a British sailboat, so is native 230V, 50Hz. All of the AC gear on board will work with 240V 60Hz or 230V 50 Hz. I am currently in the U.S. so in inverter pass through mode, the AC gear is operating on 240V/60Hz.
Everything appears to work as planned.
It is just that we can not figure out whether the time-based RCBO tripping is coming from something on the boat that we have not yet found, or if it is shore-based and the small increase in the Line-Neutral imbalance is making it past the isolation transformers and the ELCI in the aft of the boat, but tripping the RCBO at the AC distribution panel.
Today, I installed a new Schneider 30mA RCBO in place of the 22 year old Merlin-Gerin. Tomorrow we will see what happens.
@MeltemiCaz hey Bill…. For some reason I got the number of your meter wrong. That should be fine for checking these leakage currents. Don’t buy the fluke if the Hioki can do the job. Sorry about that!
@MeltemiCaz I was out and about and saw your last post saying you read 15-19mA and realised I had the wrong number of the meter. I quickly got that last post away to stop you ordering the Fluke if the Hioki can do the job. It can measure down to 1mA which is plenty of sensitivity for this job.
I now understand better that it is a 240volt boat and you do have a 30mA rated RCD. As mentioned earlier, the 30mA rated RCD has a maximum trip level of 30mA and a minimum trip level of 15mA. In practice we have found they usually trip some where between 20–23mA. Your readings are spot on for nuisance tripping. Once you get up to 19mA or so, you are so close to the tripping point (very little trip margin) any small disturbance can take you over.
When you get the B-Stop, wire it in and please take before and after leakage current measurements. If you set it to 10ma you will see your leakage current drop by about 10mA and the trip margin consequently improve by about 10mA. In other words the 19mA of leakage you now see will reduce to 9mA .
I am keen to hear your results.