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powerassist

ESS with "inverse power assist"?

Is it possible to have an ESS configuration, where grid is used as "power assist" if inverter loads go over a certain threshold?

Client wants a 3p Multiplus-II system, and 5kVA per phase is ok 99% of the time, there is a 3x16A grid line serving only as fallback. No feed-in and usually also no draw from grid (in said 99% of the cases).

As the client is reluctant to go for a 8kVA or 10kVA 3p Quattro configuration (mainly because the higher self-consumption of the devices), the question is if the grid could be used as "power assist" in those 1% peak cases.

I was thinking of an assistant activating the transfer switch if load went over xx%. Possible?

PetaJoule asked
ejrossouw commented ·

2 Answers

Quattro 48-5000 230 powerassist not working right

Power assist work grate when fist installed but now if set at 40 amps the Quattro starts to assist around 38 amps and stops assisting at 22 amps. I have a new Quattro and it works grate.

Thank you

mt_geek asked
mt_geek edited ·

2 Answers

Multiplus entering power assist unnecessarily; draining batteries

The power system (components listed here; all devices have the latest firmware as of this posting) I installed in my fifth wheel is entering power assist mode despite the AC input being less than the input current limit. For background, one goal of this system was to be able to run a pair (15 and 13.5 kBTU/hr) of air conditioners on 30A/120VAC single phase service, with the inverters/batteries supplementing the grid power for intermittent loads like a Keurig, microwave, etc. The trailer came with one air conditioner on L1 and the other on L2. Of course, when only single phase input is provided, the second inverter inverts from 12 VDC but its continuous output must of course be limited by the first inverter's charging capacity of 120A. After conversion losses this is inadequate to power the second AC without pulling from the batteries (side note for any Victron employees lurking: *please* implement a way for the second inverter in a split-phase system to accept AC input that's in-phase with the first inverter! This is obviously something that can be done in software and its absence is driving customers with RV applications out of their minds). To get around this problem I installed a 20A switch that allows me to switch the second air conditioner from L1 to L2. I thought that was clever.


But not really; the stubbornness of the Multiplus defeats my ingenuity. See pics below.

[image]

[image]


As you can see, it is drawing well below the input current limit from the grid, yet "assisting" and drawing down my batteries. The total draw is around 28-29A although it can't be seen in the pictures (but you can infer it from the "AC Loads").


Please help me figure out how to force the inverter to draw up to the input current limit before it goes into assist mode; I really can't stomach the thought that I paid ~$15k and put in dozens of hours of work to actually lose capability.


Edit: The system is plugged into a 30A 120/240VAC split-phase connection. Inside the rig I have a 50A breaker upstream of the Multis, and I cut the little metal link joining the two poles of the breaker so that I can switch L1 and L2 on/off separately. In the example above, L2 is cut off to simulate how the Multis behave when only given a 30A/120VAC input (the first inverter switches to grid input while the second simply inverts from the batteries, as I ranted about in bold above). It is connected through several long extension cords, hence the voltage drop. Nevertheless, there is sufficient input amperage available to power these loads from grid input alone (and it certainly should be pulling more than 23A when it has a 30A input current limit).


Here's a VRM link: https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installation/66058/share/6019a575

And here's a link to the RVMS file with the current inverter configuration: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JUNAxmPHIBWKNB6Saglhysvo8FdTxRsx/view?usp=sharing


Thanks!

Jersey Dirtbag asked
Jersey Dirtbag edited ·

1 Answer

VE Bus State not showing Correct Information in VRM

This is the first time I have seen this, but things don't add up on my VRM.


Earlier on today I saw that my system was using the power assist feature but upon closer inspection, the current coming from the battery was zero. But the output power was higher than the input power (as one would see during Power assist operation)- See image 1.

This happened twice more this morning, until there was a larger power assistance instance, but this time the VE.Bus state didn't show it went into power assist mode, but you can easily see that the battery was adding power to the system- See image 2.

For reference, the whole mornings data is shown in Image 3.


Has anyone else experienced this? or is this a known issue?


Regards Ewald


[image]


Image 1.


[image]

Image 2.


[image]

Image 3



EwaldErasmus asked
Alexandra commented ·

0 Answers

Multiplus 12|3000|120 AC-Out-1 wire size

Multiplus 12|3000|120 AC-Out-1: 75A possible. AWG 6 recommended.

AC-In says to use three-wire cable, AWG 6 gauge. Rated for 50A.

I've seen 6/3 cable say 55A per conductor, so is 6/3 cable sufficient for AC-Out-1? Or use three AWG 6 wires, or a lower gauge like 4/3?

Thanks!

hydroplosion asked
solardude answered ·

3 Answers

Does a Multi use Power Assist in ESS scheduled charged mode?

Hi, we use ESS extensively on residential 5KVA and 8 and 10 KVA quattros (mainly). We configure a schedule charge over the evening peak so that we have 95% of battery in case of a very likely power outage (in South Africa). On some sites we need power assist so that the household does not breach their 60A incoming breaker during peak loads (supper time in winter). Will power assist work in a scheduled charge cycle?


Furthermore - is there an application note on how power assist works and what the factor of 2 stands for? And when should this be adjusted?


RichDouglas asked
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered ·

1 Answer

Easy solar, power assist not working, tripping generator

I have a Victron easy solar 24/3000/70/50, we are using power assist but vacuum cleaner trips the generator, we have set our input current limit to suit generator size and also tried dynamic current limiter.

Steve Chaffey asked
Steve Chaffey commented ·

1 Answer

[Multiplus-II] Can you use powerassist with inverter as primary source in overload condition?

Hello, I would like to ask if you can use powerassist with inverter as primary source in overload condition. I am asking this to determine if 1x inverter will be sufficient or whether it would have to paralled 2x to accomodate rare cases or overload (electric cookers 4kW + random loads under 3kW). Let me explain:

Inverter: Multiplus-II 5000VA
Grid: Available and connected, limitless
Battery: Ideal and limitless

Normal conditions: Loads under 5000VA operate on invertor without issues (>95% time)
Question condition: Loads exceed 5000VA - Invertor overload (not counting on 130% overload possibility @ 5minutes)

When loads exceeds rating of invertor I would like it to feed in the rest from the grid (if available) resulting in 5000VA from invertor and rest taken from grid - stable over 5000VA system for limited time period. Meaning the priority should be always on batteries and invertor power and grid only used if required. I understand that if grid fails at that moment, the system would shutdown due to overload.

It this possible?
What are the limits? (Total combined power, Switching times, Minimum difference in power consumed vs power assisted, etc.)

I couldnt find answers anywhere in data sheets and powerassist manuals.
Thanks

Petr Kouba asked
holger.nestmann answered ·

2 Answers

Three-phase PowerAssist setup

Greetings


I'm looking to use an arrangement of Multiplus with the PowerAssit function to support a transformer with limited power. I have been looking for aplication notes and my system look similar to the Example 5.3 or Example 5.4 of the "Achiving the impossible" whitepaper. My main concerns are the following:

1) The systems in the examples are all single phased. For 3 phase systems the document says "Phoenix Multis and Phoenix inverters can also be configured for 3 phase operation. We will be pleased to make a proposal for a 3 phase system." I don't know if that means that they are working on new application notes or a custom solution requirement is to be submited. Are there any examples, application notes or other type of guide on 3 phase systems with the PowerAssist functionality? Is there a maximum grid power or amps to work with the PowerAssist functionality?

2) There is a PowerMan 230/80/2 module, but it doesn't appear on the product on the website. Is this a discontinued product? if so, what power controllers have replaced this product?


3) Can a 5000 and a 3000 Multiplus connected in series to get 8kW of power or does it only function with identical models?

I would greatly appreciate any help.

Best

Taky Parvex asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Multiplus 12/2000 will not connect to laptop with MK3

I installed a 12/2000 Multiplus compact in my travel trailer with 100ah Battleborn batteries. I am having two issues.


1) The Multi will not connect to neither of my two laptops using two separate MK3’s. The RJ45 cable I am using is from Victron and connects to my Smart Dongle without any issues. I need to program my Multi with the laptop as it has not been yet. This is making me feel like I wasted a lot of money of it.


2) When I am plugged into 30A shore power, the Multi will not let me use shore power for large loads (starting my AC) and it tries to do all of the work. My smart dongle then reads that it overloaded and the Multi shuts off and then back on. When plugged into shore power, this shouldn’t happen. It should just pass the power through (even power boost if needed) but it does not.

Previous posts have not been helpful with resolving this.

So far very frustrated with Victron products and will be selling this on EBay if it can’t be resolved.

Jrmeyerksu asked
LKLMEnterprises answered ·

2 Answers

Using PowerAssist

I would like to know if are there any counter-indications about the way I plan to use PowerAssist.

My main goal is to run washing machine (2000W) + some permanent loads around ~300W. So, in total, on average I would like to run ~2300W during washing machine's program.

I have an inverter Multiplus 24/ 3000 VA, capable of delivering ~2000W, but with temperature derate sometmes I get overload warnings around 1800W or 1900W. I have around 3000W of PV. The idea is to take advantage of sunny days and put the system to work, with priority to solar and getting from GRID that small amount the inverter can't provide. This, without ESS for the moment.


So, I have set on Venus these conditions:

1. If AC load on inverter > 1700W, switch to GRID

2. Maxium AC input from GRID = 3A

3. Disconnect from grid when AC load < 1000W


This will force PowerAssist to work, giving roughly 700W from grid and 1700W (max) from Inverter (Solar/ Battery). During periods of 20 ~30 minutes.

This will save me a lot of € in power bill, while not overloading the Multiplus.

Is this ok? Or am I violating any rule? I don't want to jeopardy the Multi in any way...




Elimac asked
Bobby commented ·

1 Answer

Multiplus in parallel not according to White Paper

My two Multiplus 24/3000-70/50 do not act like the White Paper "Achieving the Impossible" at all.


Here you can see my setup in action. Please notice the low low on ACin (30a single phase) and the high demand, but low SOC of my battery bank (400aH Lithium).

[image]

Please note my settings and data below.


[image]


[image]


According to the white paper, I should have ~10A AC available and charging the batteries at this point....but they just keep getting discharged.


Now, I switched the major load (A/C) off. Here is the system reaction:


[image]


[image]


[image]


Any help is appreciated.

Stephen Kunkel asked
Alexandra commented ·

1 Answer

Minimum PowerAssist current from batteries

Is there a minimum amount of power that is drawn from the batteries to “assist” for Multiplus Compact 12/2000? It always seems to be a minimum of about 400 watts or so. For instance, the inverter will actually decrease the incoming amps from shore power significantly lower than the input current setting in order to have a minimum of 400w coming from the batteries.

djpollock asked
Alexandra answered ·

1 Answer

PowerAssist is not engaging, and overloading generator

I have a 3 X Multiplus 5k 48V configured as 3 phase system and 7KW of solar panels and 480 amp hour batteries. I have connected a 6.5 KVA 3 phase generator.

On Veconfig general page

configured 7.5 Amp input current limit per phase and enabled current limiterPower assist.

On invertor page

Enabled Power assist and assistant boost factor 2.0


When The generator is charging and output load is low the current limit controls the maximum generator load well to about 4kW

But when output load starts to increase close to the maximum generation load the PowerAssist does not kick in to assist with invertor load from batteries, instead the generator load starts to increase to above 5KW eventually trips generator breaker.

Can some one help me to identify why PowerAssist does not help when aditional power is required.

Ruireis asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) commented ·

6 Answers

PowerAssist on Multi 24/3000/70-50 not working

My MultiPlus 24/3000/70-50 with firmware 2610422 when connecting a 1.5kW load it disconnect the Mains and switch to inverter mode and using solely the batteries.

The PowerAssist is enabled but it doesn't seem to work.

How can I get the PowerAssist working? Is the firmware a culprit?


Thanks in advance

DannyPM asked
Paul B answered ·

1 Answer

MultiPlus 12/3000/120-16 230V power assist

I have upgraded to a Multiplus 12/3000/120-16 230V from a 1600. Unfortunately I have not been able to get the power assist function to work on new multiplus. I have set the input current limit to 3A (manual indicates minimum is 2.3A), when I increase load above this it drop AC input and uses 100% inverter.

Boost factor set at 2, but have also tried at 1 on advice from supplier. I have also tried switching dynamic limiter and UPS functions on/off, but not change it still changes over to 100% inverter on increased load (~1500W).

Regards

Todd


jibery asked
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·

3 Answers

PV power to the battery/consamption from the battery

Hello guys!

I have three-phase ve bus system with two PV chargers.

I think I have some problem with in/out power calculation on VRM portal.

If I take one-day data from VRM its look like the PV to battery power more than the battery to consumption power. So how it's happening? If I take from battery less then I use where the excess power is going?


Alperin asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Erratic behavior of 2x Multi in Parallel in charge mode

I would like to ask Victron and the community some help in diagnosing what could be causing this...

I have a 2x Multi parallel setup. They are matched, DC input current is reasonably balanced, measured with DC Amp clamp. In Winter, I have the system inverting by day and switches to GRID and 22h to take advantage of cheap tariffs and protect the batteries. The AC input limit is set on Venus about 14A, as I have around 3.45 kVA available from grid (15A @ 230V).

Recently I have been noticing that the powerassist sometimes kicks in well below this 14A input limit. And the following was an event, 2 days ago, that really worries me.

Batteries were about 40% discharged, and at 22h the system started charging from grid. the AC loads at that time were no more than around 300W and charge current around 35A. All normal.

Now, picture 1 shows when I started the washing machine (~2kW on AC out) at same time batteries were charging. Seems also normal, and is what I expected:

STATE1:

[image]


But some moments after I noticed the charge current dropping to almost zero:

STATE2:

[image]

And there was some strange noise in the Multis at the same repetition rate: seemd like charger starting every 3 or 4 seconds. Current droping from 30A to zero and repeating in some seconds interval. But it got weirder, sometimes powerassist also came into play:

STATE3:

[image]


And it went into passtrough sometimes. Here's the complete scenario, until I gave up and stopped the washing machine:

[image]


You can see the oscillations in VRM:

[image]


[image]



So, if only charging, no problem. But when high loads and charging is needed at same time, it got a little crazy. I have firmware version 459 in the Multis since more than 9 months. Only now I noticed this. It coincided with latest Venus OS but there may be no relation. However, I did notice some strange facts:


1. The currents and power in the Venus OS menu are somewhat suspicious. I assume the power is the "real" power, and current is also "real" or does it take reactive power into account? Because 14.8 A x 233V is much more that 2436W. PLus, I measured with AC clamp, and the meter only showed about 10A coming into the system (common to 2x Multis).

[image]

EDIT: this measurement is from a date earlier (2 weeks before) the event above. Input limit was 15A at that time. I was puzzled about which vales are real power and which (if any) also take into account the power factor.


2. Upon the strange event above, I downloaded the configuration of the Multis and checked with VE config, I noticed that only one of the Multis has 7A on the AC input limit. The other one only had 3A set. I find this odd, as like this the system cannot obbey the 14A limit set on Venus OS...

Any help very much appreciated.

EDIT 2: this is the current 2x Multi Setup configuration:38d2692bc6a4_inst_ttyO5_Interfaces_Mk2_Tunnel.zip



Elimac asked
Elimac commented ·

2 Answers

Distributed Generation (Off-Grid) - Multiple loads and solar generators

I am planning for a land solar installation to provide power to 4 separate cabins separated by about 100m each - a total of 400m from end to end. Each cabin has its own power consumption, and the potential for its own solar + battery + inverter installation. The entire installation is remote and off-grid.

I have read about Distributed Generation, and I am considering how I can power share between these installations, considering the reduced AC cable size between each. But this could end up with an inverter / charger at each cabin, presumably with Victron's Power Assist / Charge happening to decide how to share the power when consumption is located in one cabin more than the others?

Or am I better just having a Solar 'power station' at one location with big inverter(s), and a thick copper cable (potentially at a higher transfer voltage) to share the generation to each of the loads.

Thanks for suggestions, ideas or further reading.

(I already have a complete Victron system with Raspberry Pi GX on my boat, but this lives in complete isolation.)

andyalford asked
andyalford commented ·

3 Answers

Minimum input current limit and PowerAssist

Especially if I have a small AC input fuse the PowerAssist is needed to feed the loads.

Today we had a customer with a RV he wants to drive to Finland and at some campsites they only have 3A sore power. But he have a Quattro 12/3000 230V, so with activated
PowerAssist the minimum input current is 4.5A.

What is the reason for the limit in combination with the PowerAssist? Is this a hardware limitation or can this be change with a future FW?

Matthias Lange - DE asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Quattros in series to reduce quiescent current

I'm upgrading my boat house bank and inverters to supply new heavy loads like induction cooktop, demand water heaters, and A/C. I'm trying to figure out what quattro setup will minimize the quiescent drain. The system is 24v 1300ah LiFePO battery bank, and either two Quattro 24/8000, or 2-3 Quattro 24/5000. I've heard the quiescent drain is rather high on Quattro, especially the 8k version. I would like to avoid high parasitic drains on the system.

If running two Quattro in parallel is the full active Iq going to be drawn by both? or does one step in when the other is heavily loaded?

If I run one Quattro into the second Quattro with the second configured for PowerAssist will that reduce the Iq on the second quattro? What is the Iq of the Quattro when in Powerassist mode, but not supplying current?

Are there any issues with daisy chaining Quattros like this?

Any suggestions on Quattro selection and/or topologies to address my needs would be appreciated.

bkarr asked
D Clark answered ·

2 Answers

About Multi, Quattro, etc. PowerAssist

Hello,

My question is about the inverter/charger’s PowerAssist. Multi, Quattro, etc. In the Victron datasheets, it’s specified: "Where peak power is so often required only for a limited period". It’s about the "peak power only limited period" that I would like to understand with the example below. I can test it but I would first be sure of my understanding of the “peak power only limited period” specification. Victron products are great but the documentations/manuals aren't really clear (sometimes, even some answers from Victron's direct technical support).

Grid 230V/16A/50Hz.

Motor 4kW (active power, not apparent in VA) AC sigle phase.

@ 25°C, the MultiPlus 1600VA gives 1300W.

In this case, without taking into account the motor starting characteristics and losses, etc., can the MultiPlus 1600VA handle (by combining grid + battery) the total power of 4000W (calculation below) continuously ? For example, for a duration of 30 minutes to 1 hour or even more?

Total power handled by the Multi = battery power (via inverter) 1300W + grid power 2700W = 4000W.

I’m trained in power electronics, active in renewable energy’s field and design currently many installations (off-grid, grid-tied & Self-consumption & energy storage) with Victron, Studer, etc. converters. The limited period, I understand as very short so no more than a few seconds or fraction of a second or can be last at most 1 minute.

Thank you in advance for your help & your contributions.

Yonas K.

Yonas Kiflom asked
Yonas Kiflom commented ·

1 Answer

PowerAssist not happening on EasySolar new installation.

New installation and was told by the dealer the default configuration is no feedin but powerassist enabled.


It isn’t and I can’t seem to work out how to get it to work.


Can anyone help? I don’t have a USB to VE.Bus dongle so can’t use VEConfigure (and don’t have a windows machine at all so couldn’t use it anyhow) .. can’t login to the VRM portal so (assuming I have read everything correctly and VEConfig Remote is there) can’t use VERemote. (See my other post about not being able to use the VRM).


Thoughts? Solutions?


Thanks,


Michelle

misullivan asked
Matthias Lange - DE edited ·

3 Answers

Power assist

Hi can someone please explain power assist and what settings I need to choose on my dial. We have a multiplus inverter charger 12/1600/70, Phoenix multi control, 960watts of solar and a 675amp battery bank. When running a honda eu20i generator as shore power to the boat what setting do I need on the dial and also when running a kipor 6.5kv generator as shore power to the what do I need to set the dial at. I presume the marks 1 to 16 represent amps. Thank you

[image]

LesRollins asked
JohnC answered ·

2 Answers

Comment parrametrer MultiPlus-II pour implémenter les fonctions PowerControl et PowerAssist et optimiser l'autoconsommation grâce à une sonde de courant externe 100 A : 50 mA.

Bonjour ,je souhaite optimiser la production sur l’autoconsommation en journée en me servant des batteries qui compléteraient le manque de puissance sur de courte utilisation. Ex sèche cheveux, Grille pain, lave vaisselle .....

Par la suite le surplus serais renvoyé dans les batteries qui sont déjà programmer pour être rechargé en journée et déchargé le soir SOC 70% à partir du moment ou il y a plus de production suffisante pour couvrir le besoin.

Actuellement la production est consommée et le surplus renvoyée sur le réseau une fois les batteries chargée à 100%. Le réseau compense, le manque quand il y a une demande plus forte que la production solaire.

J'ai le Transformateur de courant de 100 A : 50 mA pour MultiPlus-II qui permet d'implémenter les fonctions PowerControl et PowerAssist et d'optimiser l'autoconsommation grâce à une sonde de courant externe mais je ne sais pas comment faire la programmation.

Je suis sur un multi-plus II ,venus GX, sur cette configuration réseau.

[image]

Merci pour votre aide.

florian17000 asked
florian17000 edited ·

0 Answers

PowerAssist & ESS - is Powerassist ignored, with an ESS?

In the ESS manual, it states that when an ESS assistant is added, PowerAssist will be ignored. However, I have found it is still possible to check the Power assist box and set an assistance level. Does anyone know if Powerassist is entirely ignored, where an ESS is setup for a Multiplus? So for an on-grid Multiplus-II 5KVA, we have a transfer switch for occasional charging from a small 2KVA generator. But when that 2KVA generator is operating, the inverter output to the residence would be effectively very limited, and possibly removed in favour of AC power from the generator, would it not? Without Powerassist being set to say 3.0, which is what I wish to do. Perhaps there is another way to approach that, too?

Craig Myatt asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) commented ·

1 Answer

What size altenators are required to run the 24/3000/70 multiplus

Hello what size altenators are required to supply the inverter with enough power. We have 2 1000cca batteries.

ScotiaD asked
dwmarine answered ·

4 Answers

Ve.Bus Warning Overload L1 as air conditioning starts.

Should I worry? I assume this is due to compressor inrush current. The Webasto BlueCool unit cycles at about 50% duty cycle every 6 minutes and uses 13A at 230V continuous. The warning clears after 20 seconds and only happens maybe a dozen times a day with no noticeable negative effects. Power Assist is set at 14A and comes on every cycle since the background load is usually 2-8 amps. This is on a parallel Multiplus system with two 12/1600/70 so there should be 6000W (26A) plus the 14A from shore power for inrush (40A total). I have Boost Factor set to 1.3 and UPS and Dynamic Current Limiter off as supposedly required for my Panda generator (not using generator right now as I am on shore power).

kdagley asked
ben answered ·

1 Answer

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