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powerassist

Using PowerAssist

I would like to know if are there any counter-indications about the way I plan to use PowerAssist.

My main goal is to run washing machine (2000W) + some permanent loads around ~300W. So, in total, on average I would like to run ~2300W during washing machine's program.

I have an inverter Multiplus 24/ 3000 VA, capable of delivering ~2000W, but with temperature derate sometmes I get overload warnings around 1800W or 1900W. I have around 3000W of PV. The idea is to take advantage of sunny days and put the system to work, with priority to solar and getting from GRID that small amount the inverter can't provide. This, without ESS for the moment.


So, I have set on Venus these conditions:

1. If AC load on inverter > 1700W, switch to GRID

2. Maxium AC input from GRID = 3A

3. Disconnect from grid when AC load < 1000W


This will force PowerAssist to work, giving roughly 700W from grid and 1700W (max) from Inverter (Solar/ Battery). During periods of 20 ~30 minutes.

This will save me a lot of € in power bill, while not overloading the Multiplus.

Is this ok? Or am I violating any rule? I don't want to jeopardy the Multi in any way...




Elimac asked
Bobby commented ·

1 Answer

Multiplus in parallel not according to White Paper

My two Multiplus 24/3000-70/50 do not act like the White Paper "Achieving the Impossible" at all.


Here you can see my setup in action. Please notice the low low on ACin (30a single phase) and the high demand, but low SOC of my battery bank (400aH Lithium).

[image]

Please note my settings and data below.


[image]


[image]


According to the white paper, I should have ~10A AC available and charging the batteries at this point....but they just keep getting discharged.


Now, I switched the major load (A/C) off. Here is the system reaction:


[image]


[image]


[image]


Any help is appreciated.

Stephen Kunkel asked
Alexandra commented ·

1 Answer

Minimum PowerAssist current from batteries

Is there a minimum amount of power that is drawn from the batteries to “assist” for Multiplus Compact 12/2000? It always seems to be a minimum of about 400 watts or so. For instance, the inverter will actually decrease the incoming amps from shore power significantly lower than the input current setting in order to have a minimum of 400w coming from the batteries.

djpollock asked
Alexandra answered ·

1 Answer

PowerAssist is not engaging, and overloading generator

I have a 3 X Multiplus 5k 48V configured as 3 phase system and 7KW of solar panels and 480 amp hour batteries. I have connected a 6.5 KVA 3 phase generator.

On Veconfig general page

configured 7.5 Amp input current limit per phase and enabled current limiterPower assist.

On invertor page

Enabled Power assist and assistant boost factor 2.0


When The generator is charging and output load is low the current limit controls the maximum generator load well to about 4kW

But when output load starts to increase close to the maximum generation load the PowerAssist does not kick in to assist with invertor load from batteries, instead the generator load starts to increase to above 5KW eventually trips generator breaker.

Can some one help me to identify why PowerAssist does not help when aditional power is required.

Ruireis asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) commented ·

6 Answers

PowerAssist on Multi 24/3000/70-50 not working

My MultiPlus 24/3000/70-50 with firmware 2610422 when connecting a 1.5kW load it disconnect the Mains and switch to inverter mode and using solely the batteries.

The PowerAssist is enabled but it doesn't seem to work.

How can I get the PowerAssist working? Is the firmware a culprit?


Thanks in advance

DannyPM asked
Paul B answered ·

1 Answer

MultiPlus 12/3000/120-16 230V power assist

I have upgraded to a Multiplus 12/3000/120-16 230V from a 1600. Unfortunately I have not been able to get the power assist function to work on new multiplus. I have set the input current limit to 3A (manual indicates minimum is 2.3A), when I increase load above this it drop AC input and uses 100% inverter.

Boost factor set at 2, but have also tried at 1 on advice from supplier. I have also tried switching dynamic limiter and UPS functions on/off, but not change it still changes over to 100% inverter on increased load (~1500W).

Regards

Todd


jibery asked
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·

3 Answers

PV power to the battery/consamption from the battery

Hello guys!

I have three-phase ve bus system with two PV chargers.

I think I have some problem with in/out power calculation on VRM portal.

If I take one-day data from VRM its look like the PV to battery power more than the battery to consumption power. So how it's happening? If I take from battery less then I use where the excess power is going?


Alperin asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Erratic behavior of 2x Multi in Parallel in charge mode

I would like to ask Victron and the community some help in diagnosing what could be causing this...

I have a 2x Multi parallel setup. They are matched, DC input current is reasonably balanced, measured with DC Amp clamp. In Winter, I have the system inverting by day and switches to GRID and 22h to take advantage of cheap tariffs and protect the batteries. The AC input limit is set on Venus about 14A, as I have around 3.45 kVA available from grid (15A @ 230V).

Recently I have been noticing that the powerassist sometimes kicks in well below this 14A input limit. And the following was an event, 2 days ago, that really worries me.

Batteries were about 40% discharged, and at 22h the system started charging from grid. the AC loads at that time were no more than around 300W and charge current around 35A. All normal.

Now, picture 1 shows when I started the washing machine (~2kW on AC out) at same time batteries were charging. Seems also normal, and is what I expected:

STATE1:

[image]


But some moments after I noticed the charge current dropping to almost zero:

STATE2:

[image]

And there was some strange noise in the Multis at the same repetition rate: seemd like charger starting every 3 or 4 seconds. Current droping from 30A to zero and repeating in some seconds interval. But it got weirder, sometimes powerassist also came into play:

STATE3:

[image]


And it went into passtrough sometimes. Here's the complete scenario, until I gave up and stopped the washing machine:

[image]


You can see the oscillations in VRM:

[image]


[image]



So, if only charging, no problem. But when high loads and charging is needed at same time, it got a little crazy. I have firmware version 459 in the Multis since more than 9 months. Only now I noticed this. It coincided with latest Venus OS but there may be no relation. However, I did notice some strange facts:


1. The currents and power in the Venus OS menu are somewhat suspicious. I assume the power is the "real" power, and current is also "real" or does it take reactive power into account? Because 14.8 A x 233V is much more that 2436W. PLus, I measured with AC clamp, and the meter only showed about 10A coming into the system (common to 2x Multis).

[image]

EDIT: this measurement is from a date earlier (2 weeks before) the event above. Input limit was 15A at that time. I was puzzled about which vales are real power and which (if any) also take into account the power factor.


2. Upon the strange event above, I downloaded the configuration of the Multis and checked with VE config, I noticed that only one of the Multis has 7A on the AC input limit. The other one only had 3A set. I find this odd, as like this the system cannot obbey the 14A limit set on Venus OS...

Any help very much appreciated.

EDIT 2: this is the current 2x Multi Setup configuration:38d2692bc6a4_inst_ttyO5_Interfaces_Mk2_Tunnel.zip



Elimac asked
Elimac commented ·

2 Answers

Distributed Generation (Off-Grid) - Multiple loads and solar generators

I am planning for a land solar installation to provide power to 4 separate cabins separated by about 100m each - a total of 400m from end to end. Each cabin has its own power consumption, and the potential for its own solar + battery + inverter installation. The entire installation is remote and off-grid.

I have read about Distributed Generation, and I am considering how I can power share between these installations, considering the reduced AC cable size between each. But this could end up with an inverter / charger at each cabin, presumably with Victron's Power Assist / Charge happening to decide how to share the power when consumption is located in one cabin more than the others?

Or am I better just having a Solar 'power station' at one location with big inverter(s), and a thick copper cable (potentially at a higher transfer voltage) to share the generation to each of the loads.

Thanks for suggestions, ideas or further reading.

(I already have a complete Victron system with Raspberry Pi GX on my boat, but this lives in complete isolation.)

andyalford asked
andyalford commented ·

3 Answers

Minimum input current limit and PowerAssist

Especially if I have a small AC input fuse the PowerAssist is needed to feed the loads.

Today we had a customer with a RV he wants to drive to Finland and at some campsites they only have 3A sore power. But he have a Quattro 12/3000 230V, so with activated
PowerAssist the minimum input current is 4.5A.

What is the reason for the limit in combination with the PowerAssist? Is this a hardware limitation or can this be change with a future FW?

Matthias Lange - DE asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Quattros in series to reduce quiescent current

I'm upgrading my boat house bank and inverters to supply new heavy loads like induction cooktop, demand water heaters, and A/C. I'm trying to figure out what quattro setup will minimize the quiescent drain. The system is 24v 1300ah LiFePO battery bank, and either two Quattro 24/8000, or 2-3 Quattro 24/5000. I've heard the quiescent drain is rather high on Quattro, especially the 8k version. I would like to avoid high parasitic drains on the system.

If running two Quattro in parallel is the full active Iq going to be drawn by both? or does one step in when the other is heavily loaded?

If I run one Quattro into the second Quattro with the second configured for PowerAssist will that reduce the Iq on the second quattro? What is the Iq of the Quattro when in Powerassist mode, but not supplying current?

Are there any issues with daisy chaining Quattros like this?

Any suggestions on Quattro selection and/or topologies to address my needs would be appreciated.

bkarr asked
D Clark answered ·

2 Answers

About Multi, Quattro, etc. PowerAssist

Hello,

My question is about the inverter/charger’s PowerAssist. Multi, Quattro, etc. In the Victron datasheets, it’s specified: "Where peak power is so often required only for a limited period". It’s about the "peak power only limited period" that I would like to understand with the example below. I can test it but I would first be sure of my understanding of the “peak power only limited period” specification. Victron products are great but the documentations/manuals aren't really clear (sometimes, even some answers from Victron's direct technical support).

Grid 230V/16A/50Hz.

Motor 4kW (active power, not apparent in VA) AC sigle phase.

@ 25°C, the MultiPlus 1600VA gives 1300W.

In this case, without taking into account the motor starting characteristics and losses, etc., can the MultiPlus 1600VA handle (by combining grid + battery) the total power of 4000W (calculation below) continuously ? For example, for a duration of 30 minutes to 1 hour or even more?

Total power handled by the Multi = battery power (via inverter) 1300W + grid power 2700W = 4000W.

I’m trained in power electronics, active in renewable energy’s field and design currently many installations (off-grid, grid-tied & Self-consumption & energy storage) with Victron, Studer, etc. converters. The limited period, I understand as very short so no more than a few seconds or fraction of a second or can be last at most 1 minute.

Thank you in advance for your help & your contributions.

Yonas K.

Yonas Kiflom asked
Yonas Kiflom commented ·

1 Answer

PowerAssist not happening on EasySolar new installation.

New installation and was told by the dealer the default configuration is no feedin but powerassist enabled.


It isn’t and I can’t seem to work out how to get it to work.


Can anyone help? I don’t have a USB to VE.Bus dongle so can’t use VEConfigure (and don’t have a windows machine at all so couldn’t use it anyhow) .. can’t login to the VRM portal so (assuming I have read everything correctly and VEConfig Remote is there) can’t use VERemote. (See my other post about not being able to use the VRM).


Thoughts? Solutions?


Thanks,


Michelle

misullivan asked
Matthias Lange - DE edited ·

3 Answers

Power assist

Hi can someone please explain power assist and what settings I need to choose on my dial. We have a multiplus inverter charger 12/1600/70, Phoenix multi control, 960watts of solar and a 675amp battery bank. When running a honda eu20i generator as shore power to the boat what setting do I need on the dial and also when running a kipor 6.5kv generator as shore power to the what do I need to set the dial at. I presume the marks 1 to 16 represent amps. Thank you

[image]

LesRollins asked
JohnC answered ·

2 Answers

PowerAssist & ESS - is Powerassist ignored, with an ESS?

In the ESS manual, it states that when an ESS assistant is added, PowerAssist will be ignored. However, I have found it is still possible to check the Power assist box and set an assistance level. Does anyone know if Powerassist is entirely ignored, where an ESS is setup for a Multiplus? So for an on-grid Multiplus-II 5KVA, we have a transfer switch for occasional charging from a small 2KVA generator. But when that 2KVA generator is operating, the inverter output to the residence would be effectively very limited, and possibly removed in favour of AC power from the generator, would it not? Without Powerassist being set to say 3.0, which is what I wish to do. Perhaps there is another way to approach that, too?

Craig Myatt asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) commented ·

1 Answer

What size altenators are required to run the 24/3000/70 multiplus

Hello what size altenators are required to supply the inverter with enough power. We have 2 1000cca batteries.

ScotiaD asked
dwmarine answered ·

4 Answers

Ve.Bus Warning Overload L1 as air conditioning starts.

Should I worry? I assume this is due to compressor inrush current. The Webasto BlueCool unit cycles at about 50% duty cycle every 6 minutes and uses 13A at 230V continuous. The warning clears after 20 seconds and only happens maybe a dozen times a day with no noticeable negative effects. Power Assist is set at 14A and comes on every cycle since the background load is usually 2-8 amps. This is on a parallel Multiplus system with two 12/1600/70 so there should be 6000W (26A) plus the 14A from shore power for inrush (40A total). I have Boost Factor set to 1.3 and UPS and Dynamic Current Limiter off as supposedly required for my Panda generator (not using generator right now as I am on shore power).

kdagley asked
ben answered ·

1 Answer

Effect of low load power Factor on Inverter-Generator Integration

One of the loads connected to a 3 phase 15kVa Quattro inverters has a low load power factor (as low as 0.5). When this load is connected the integrated diesel generator's output is ignored by the inverters. However the load appears not to affect the generator output (values are within threshold). How can we solve this?

Gndubi asked
JohnC answered ·

1 Answer

[Multiplus-II] Can you use powerassist with inverter as primary source in overload condition?

Hello, I would like to ask if you can use powerassist with inverter as primary source in overload condition. I am asking this to determine if 1x inverter will be sufficient or whether it would have to paralled 2x to accomodate rare cases or overload (electric cookers 4kW + random loads under 3kW). Let me explain:

Inverter: Multiplus-II 5000VA
Grid: Available and connected, limitless
Battery: Ideal and limitless

Normal conditions: Loads under 5000VA operate on invertor without issues (>95% time)
Question condition: Loads exceed 5000VA - Invertor overload (not counting on 130% overload possibility @ 5minutes)

When loads exceeds rating of invertor I would like it to feed in the rest from the grid (if available) resulting in 5000VA from invertor and rest taken from grid - stable over 5000VA system for limited time period. Meaning the priority should be always on batteries and invertor power and grid only used if required. I understand that if grid fails at that moment, the system would shutdown due to overload.

It this possible?
What are the limits? (Total combined power, Switching times, Minimum difference in power consumed vs power assisted, etc.)

I couldnt find answers anywhere in data sheets and powerassist manuals.
Thanks

Petr Kouba asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

EasySolar: Benefit of AC out 2 when PowerAssist is not used?

When not making use of PowerAssist, is there any benefit from having AC out 2?
I could connect the grid directly through a fuse with the load instead of connecting AC out 2 with the load.

Rainer asked
ejrossouw answered ·

3 Answers

Understanding Quattro's PowerAssist functionality for 2nd output leg

We have some aircon and other high consumption devices setup on 2nd output leg of our 5kw Quattro and these are only enabled if an input source is available - shore power or generator.

The startup spike of 4840w on the aircon unit is just a little more than our generator of 4500w can supply so the Quattro shuts that output leg down when it sees the startup spike. This is only a split second at startup and they draw around 900w when running.

My limited understanding was that PowerAssist should kick in to assist here and the Quattro can accommodate a spike equal to double its output - 10kw for us.

An attending technician tells me that PowerAssist would not apply in this instance as it does not work on 2nd output leg? This doesn't sound right according to the product description:

"This feature takes the principle of PowerControl to a further dimension allowing the Quattro to supplement the capacity of the alternative source. Where peak power is so often required only for a limited period, the Quattro will make sure that insufficient mains or generator power is immediately compensated for by power from the battery."


If this is the case, it would cost us an additional $1000 to install soft starts for the AC units, but my limited understanding is that the Quattro should use PowerAssist and allow for a spike of around 10kw in this scenario?

Samuel Goldenbaum asked
Samuel Goldenbaum commented ·

3 Answers

Increasing "old" MultiPlus 5000 setup to 10000 VA (parallel, serial?)

Hello,

We have a MultiPlus 48/5000/70 battery-only off-grid solar setup. We recently added an additional solar array (increased from 5kW to 10kW), and now need to extend the max AC power from 5000 to 10000 VA.

I have been using and adding various Victron components during the years and thought that with time, when we add more solar panels, I'll be able to utilise the so-much advertised "Virtually unlimited power thanks to parallel operation" quote. To my despair, I just got reply from the dealer that my MultiPlus "is too old" and can't work in parallel with the units that are sold Today!? Is this true? How can it be?

Our MultiPlus has the following version sticker on the processor: 1959143.VFD

  • Isn't it possible to upgrade the firmware to work in parallel with the currently sold MultiPlus?
  • Isn't it possible to buy a MultiPlus with the compatible "old" firmware to my owned MultiPlus?
  • If parallel is impossible, are there any other alternatives, like connecting them in serial? I.e. feeding AC-Out of the "old" MultiPlus to the "new" MultiPlus AC-In (with charger disabled) and expect that PowerAssist would kick-in when AC-in limit is reached? It would be set to MultiPlus max power. This way the "old" MultiPlus would take most of the load, while the new one would kick-in only when more than 5000 VA are needed.

If nothing of the above is possible, what would you suggest? One of the reasons I went with Victron years back was because of that "Virtually unlimited power thanks to parallel operation" quote. Was it just a marketing trick which only works in one corner case when you buy all the equipment at the same time, and there is no backward compatibility designed-in?

Please help.

Oxy- asked
Paul B edited ·

6 Answers

Powerassist with priority to solar

Hi,

I have a grid-connected system (no feedback) with Multiplus 3000/24/70 and VenusGX.

I can run most of my electronics from the inverter, but when it comes to the washing machines (2000W) the inverter can't cope since there is additionally some 200W to 400W AC loads connected. So, I have set a condition to switch to grid if AC loads > 1800W. But to take advantage of Solar, I have put a limit in the AC input in the order of 3 to 6A. This will make the System use Powerassist and use much of the Solar (either direct or from battery) and get another part of energy from Grid.


The issue that I want to address is that if I want to really take advantage of solar - I have >3000Wp installed, I would like the inverter to fetch from grid only what it really needs to complete the AC loads needs. That is, use the Maximum AC load that I set as condition to switch to grid to be the inverter set point (in my case 1800W) and get the remaining from grid.

Instead, what currently happens is that system will use the maximum that it can from Grid and then complements with Solar. I would like this in reverse...

Is there any way to do it?

(note: I can't use ESS...)

Elimac asked
Elimac commented ·

1 Answer

Shore current limit not limiting shore current, PowerAssist not assisting.

I feel like I'm missing something. I have a Quattro for future expandability, but only a single AC source at the moment, so shore power is on AC 1. The shore power connection here is rated at 15A and I'd like to keep it to 13A just to be cautious.

I'm using VEConfig with a Mk3-USB, and I have both AC 1 and AC 2 current limits set to 13A, I've also tried setting them to 5A just for testing. I have "overrule by remote" unchecked, make sure PowerAssist is enabled in the Inverter tab, and send the settings to the Quattro.

Then I start applying loads -- every heat-gun I can find in the shop! I can get IMains = 15.3A and my clamp-meter on the AC wiring confirms it. The battery is still being charged, albeit slowly (Idc=3A or so) in this condition. Why isn't PowerAssist assisting?

I've also tried checking "overrule by remote" and opening the virtual panel, with the virtual dial spun down to just a few amps, and I get the same result -- I can easily draw more power than the stated limit, and PowerAssist doesn't seem to be doing anything at all.

Where should I look to troubleshoot this?

nbezanson asked
mvader (Victron Energy) commented ·

5 Answers

Limits of Power Assist

Hello Everyone,

I have been asked to setup a medium size boat with Air Conditioning and a Victron Quattro.

The main point is: What is the limit of Power Assist?

Can it sustain the inrush current of the Air Conditioner engine?

It takes 84 A for 200 milliseconds (at 50 Hz this is 10 AC cycles).

Then the consumption falls to 9.2 A. The engine is a 1 -phase 230 V AC.

I already know that the Quattro will keep up power for the first AC 30 cycles regardless of the output Voltage and then go into block.

Please any help will be very appreciated.

Best regards,

Sergio Solinas


smgsolinas asked
Paul B answered ·

1 Answer

Multiplus Dipswitch Issue

I am running a 48/3000 multiplus with a midnight 250 controller on an off grid solar setup. I have purchased a Honda EU22I generator to helpay on the cloudy days. Because it is a small genny I have tried to limit the ac input current by using the dipswitches. My issue arises when I press and hold the up button for 2 seconds, there is no flashing red lights to indicate that the settings have saved. I have also tried holding the button for various other times, but I can't get it to work. I have read the manual several times, as well as the in depth description.

Any suggestions? Other than buy an mk3usb interface

Cheers

Niko Tesla asked
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered ·

2 Answers

Quattro 48/15,000 Max AC Out

We studied the manuals and spoke to our in country distributors in South Africa and we are getting conflicting messages and need to get to the bottom of this.

We in the process of implementing 2 x Quattro 48/15000 in parallel per phase i.e. 6 in total. Reading the manual it states that if the AC voltage on AC-in-1 or AC-in-2 is switched through, but the load demands more current than the mains can supply, the inverter will be switched on to supply additional current.

Which refers to the PowerAssist where the Quattro can together with a maximum input current of 100A + 65A from the inverter give us 165A (15kVA model) or in our case parallel connected Victrons, we will get 330 Amps per phase (2 x 100a AC Input + 2 x 65A Inverter).

What we can't get a definite answer on, is if this is just for a "rush-in" situation or can it be for a longer period, as we do have sometimes on this site more than a 200A requirement for periods of one hour.

The one solution is we can purchase another 3 Victrons, one per phase but for the short periods it will be in use it is not worth it.


Looking forward to your response.

Wessel Wessels asked
ben commented ·

4 Answers

Quattro powerassist cycling rapidly

Quattro 5K with periodic resistive heat loads which exceed the input current limit. Sometimes a rapid jumping back and forth occurs between "power assist" and "bulk" modes. This results in a very rapid drop of battery SOC, much more than what seems reasonable. SOC recovers very fast afterward.


The highest output power peak I see there is 8956W, and that is with a 50A input current limit


graph:

https://imgur.com/a/Kmykoz7


zoomed in:

https://imgur.com/a/6g12Vx4


output power (same timespan as image above):

https://imgur.com/a/k2Rr835


Battery effect !!

https://imgur.com/a/ltThTgj


It has been doing this for some time now, maybe once per day. No complaints from users, everything seems to be fine on the output. Anyone recognize that load profile? Could that be a microwave?

Vincent asked
Vincent commented ·

6 Answers

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