Pylontech Image


Pylontech US2000B and VE.Can MPPT

I currently have 5KVA Multiplus with a 150/70 VE.Can MPPT charge controller using ESS with CCGX.

My current VRLA batteries are in need of replacement and was looking at replacing them with Pylontech US2000B or US3000 batteries. According to this article its not possible

Is this still that case as it its not possible at all or are there limitations?

byrons asked
Henrik answered ·

3 Answers

Pylontech - MPPT Yield Limited

Hi everyone,

This is my first post in the community and our first Victron installation so please excuse me if I miss something.

Before posting, following the Forum guidelines, I looked at these posts but I just could not find the answer to our issue.

We have a DC coupled PV ESS:

  • Quattro 48/3000/35-50/50 120V
  • Smart Solar 250/100 VE Direct
  • 5.4 kW PV Modules (3 strings of 5 x 360 W Modules)
  • 2x Pylontech US2000
  • Cerbo GX
  • System recently installed, setup in VE Config and all firmware uptated to latest version

We have noticed that the PV Yield is limited to around 1200-1300 W, regardless if we have 1 or the 3 strings connected. Currenty there are limited AC loads but while comissioning we tested and increased loads and the PV Yield increased up to 2000 W with the additional loads (~800 W)

We set up everything as per the manual and Pylontech specific instructions.

Looking at the different posts and manual, it looks like the Battery BMS of the battery is limiting the PV output. I looked into the parameters of the battery in VRM (screenshot attached) and it shows CCL is ony 10 A, while DCL is 50 A.

Pylontech Params


MPPT Params


The DCL of 50 A confirms that the system is reading the 2x Pylontech batteries correct? The CCL of 10 A with the 120 Volts ~ i.e. 1200 W would to confirm to me that this is the reason why it's limiting to 1200 W with no loads. The MPPT Charge current param is 50 A. There are no extreme cold conditions, the battery temp range sbetween 14 deg C to around 20 deg C during the day. Should 14 deg C already limit the CCL to only 10 A?

If this is the case, then, my questions are:

  • Why if the battery is fully charged, it limits the PV output. We can feed back to the grid and we have played with it enabled and disabled for testing purposes, however the PV yield is limited to the 1200 W. The plan for the system is to feed back all excess to the grid as a regular grid-tied PV inverter even if there's no load but the 1200 W is currently only 25% of the capacity!
  • Could anyone suggest more trouuleshooting stepts to resolve this issue?

Thank you very much for your support.



juan-sebastian-pfeiffer asked
nickdb edited ·

2 Answers

ESS: Can Pylontech batteries limit inverter output during day when SOC 100% and loads run off solar?

The site has a 7200w solar array.

20 x 360w solar panels

250|100 MPPT


2 x 5kva MultiPlus II inverters in parallel.

3 x US3000 PylonTech (under Victron recommendations)

It is an ESS system. (Optimized with Battery life)

after SOC is 100% , when consumption goes >2500w in the day, the panels don't cover the consumption. Can this be because of the continuous discharge rating of the Pylontech batteries? or is this not the issue?




@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) @Johannes Boonstra (Victron Energy Staff) @mvader (Victron Energy)

Can you help, been struggling to find the solution to this problem.

jond asked
nickdb commented ·

2 Answers

How to connect Victron Smart Battery Sense on Pylontechs?

Hi all

I am currently contemplating of adding a 2nd Victron MPPT to my system. As I am not using a GX in my system (using Axperts as inverters), I am looking to use a Smart Battery Sense to create a VE.Smart Network to synchronise the charging of the 2 MPPTs.

But I now have 2 practical questions, which I hope someone might be able to help with:

  1. I understand that the Smart Battery Sense is supposed to be connected directly to the battery's terminals. But how do I best do that for Pylons - given their non-standard terminals? Or do I connect the Smart Battery Sense to the end of the Pylon connection cable (where it connects to my DC busbar)?
  2. I am currently having 4x Pylons connected via a single Pylon connection cable (120A). As with the 2nd MPPT I might in theory be producing up to 135A, I thought it would be safer to add another Pylon connection cable (even though I don't think that the full 135A would ever be pushed into the Pylons as my load also still needs to be supplied). How would I connect the Smart Battery Sense when using 2 sets of Pylon connection cables?

Thanks in advance for inputs

wolfandy asked
wolfandy commented ·

2 Answers

Why is this system not fully charging the batteries from AC PV?

Dear all,

My parents have a new off grid installation in Spain (no grid available where they live). The installation was installed August 8th 2020. I haven't physically been able to and check their installation (due to covid restrictions).

I am not at all a Victron specialist, but have installed my own Solar system, and I am very much into LiFePO4 batteries/ DIY powerwalls / off grid systems in general.

I believe their system isn't working as it should, based on my experience, and therefore I started to study the parts used in their installation in order to help them find the problem (because the installer treats my parents as retired old people and says everything is working as it should). But, wait...

The parts:

* 39 solar panels:

- 12 280W panels connected to Victron MPPT150|60-TR Bluesolar charge controller

- 27 280W panels connected to a 5kW SMA sunny boy (sb5.0-1av-41 905). I don't know how the sunny boy is connected to the system. It's an "on grid" invertor according to SMA (= grid tie), therefore it would suffice to connect the SMA AC to the juntion box and it should regulate/synchronize it's output wave based on the Quattro AC (i suppose that the Quattro will act as the "grid").

* Quattro 48/10000/140-2x100

* 6 x 2.4kWh = 14,4kWh pylontech pack of batteries, good stuf

* Venus GX

The dashboard, at the moment, looks like this:



* Let's say that it's 1400hrs, the sun is shining bright, and the batteries are @ 60% and charging. Then, all of a sudden, the SMA stops putting electricity on the "grid". Often, the SMA sunny boy stops working for say 1 or 2 hours, losing critical energy in the winter and the end result is a battery that is say 80% charged instead of 100% at the end of the day.

So I checked out the statistics @ the moments that this type of scenario takes place (almost every day), check this out:

My father notices, for example December 13 (but this happens every day) that the Sunny Boy isn't putting power to the grid (He checks the Victron dashboard regularly, so he notices this quite soon), and he let's me know. So I start digging... And I notice this:

I notice that there are gaps in the production of the sunny boy.


I check the SMA error page, and at the moments that there are gaps in the production, I get frequency related errors:


So I go the the VRM-app, and dig into the frequency statistics:


To me it's clear that something is causing ripples in the AC frequency (from for example 11AM-> 1300hrs, 53Hz, which isn't just a ripple).

My parents state that their bulbs start flickering, change brightness when these peaks/gaps occur.

* Initialy the installer installed a 6KW SAJ invertor, but this invertor got so terribly hot, that after a week or 2 it died. The installer then replaced the SAJ with a 5kW Sunny Boy. I told him (through my parents, I didn't actually get to talk to the installer) to install a 6kW invertor, because my parents paid for a 6kW, and 27 panels in Spain cán in fact generate more that 5kW. But the installer said that that is non sense, a 5kW was just fine.

-> What the F*c#??

* The installer installed a 3-way switch for 'solar system', "off" and "generator".


When my dad connected the generator and sets the switch to generator, all lights inside the house started to shine brighter, a couple of LED-stripts/bulbs "exploded", and the quattro started clicking like a maniac (must be relays trying their best to regulate something).

i believe they miswired the generator connection to the system. I think that my dad is putting 220V onto the system (with the generator), but the quattro is the master, not a grid tie invertor. Therefore the quattro doesn't synchronise it's 220V with the generators. The result is, I believe, constructive and destructive interference and as a result the bulbs exploded due to the AC peaks.

Does this seem likely to be the cause/what's happening?

What my parents want:

* to have as much and as stable of a 220V system as possible

* to have the invertors charge the batteries as fast as possible, without devices stalling for no reason (because the loose precious daylight in the mean time)

* to be able to connect my parents 6KW generator to the system to power the house and charge batteries in dark weeks without a lot of solar power;

That's it, and that's what's promised by the installer.

Please give my your thoughts. I'm watching all that is to be watched on YouTube, reading datasheets, etc. but actual help/opinions of guys witch real Victron knowledge would be invaluable.

Thanks in advance.

hdb asked
marekp edited ·

6 Answers

Incorrect battery temperature displayed on VRM


Pylontech batteries sitting at 15c degrees on ccgx,however the VRM is indicating -273 c degrees!


Mark asked
Mark commented ·

1 Answer

Pylontech Internal Failure Alarm

Good Day I have a EasySollar 5 KVA and 3 pylontech batteries I keep on getting an alarm Pylontech Battery Alarm Internal failure any suggestions please my system is only 2 months old. Kind Regards Leon

leon-zimbabwe asked
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) commented ·

5 Answers

Pylontech US3000 not displayed in the device list

Good Day,

I am having the same issue that was reported in the "US3000 not shown on venus" thread. In my case I have a Multiplus-II GX (5k), thus it is a little more complicated to swap out and I'm hoping to resolve this without having to got that route.

I've read the aforementioned thread as well as other other related threads and I am pretty sure that I've got everything set correctly. Here are all the steps I have taken:

  1. Upgraded the firmware
  2. Set "CAN-bus profile: CAN-bus BMS (500 kbit/s)" (note that it was already set)
  3. Tried a different CAN-bus cable between the battery and the inverter (I have 2) and also tried flipping it around.
  4. Powered on and off the batteries
  5. Tried a single battery.
  6. Tried switching around the CAN terminator and the cable

Below are pictures and screen captures of my installation. Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

Thank You,









ryan-sheidow asked
Alexandra commented ·

2 Answers

Charging 48V batteries from alternator


It's been some time now that I'm trying to find a solution for my next van installation.

I first came with this diagram with 2 victron 12V LifePo4 (24v):

Now I would like to use the Pylontech 48 V batteries and a Multiplus II 48V/3000 for efficiency, price, form factor, ...

I searched for a 48V buck/boost around 50/100Amps and found nothing affordable and easily available. I do not want to install a second 48V alternator... At least not at first, I have a strong 250A 12V alternator.

The basic schematic would be as follow:

- A "small" inverter under the hood would allow to feed the Multiplus at the rear of the van without needing big wires (and losses).

- The inverter would be activated with a D+ signal to avoid discharging the start battery

- The installation would be very simple

- I could easily "tune" the amps drawn from the inverter with the AC input current limiter of the Multiplus

Is it possible ? do you see any problems with this kind of setup ?

Thanks !


Basic diagram without solar, Cerbo GX etc etc etc.



sebcbien asked
danhig answered ·

3 Answers

Multiple mppts with Pylontech

Hi all, I just want to confirm that I’m not going to run into any problems running two BlueSolar 150/35 MPPTs through a Cerbo GX to charge four Pylontech US2000s? I have two arrays one slightly SE and one slightly SW to extend the solar day and reduce the time the batteries are operating on their own. The system uses a Multi 48/5000. I presume I would connect each MPPT individually to the Cerbo with the VE.Direct cables? The only part of this set up I have so far is the panels and the Multi. Thanks!

danbunton asked
Alexandra commented ·

2 Answers

Pylontech disappeared from system

Hi, i have a multiplus 2 3000gx with on the ac in 2 APsystems micro inverters and a pylontech 2,4Kw battery. All working fine until yesterday and the pylontech does not appear in the system any more. The battery monitor is now set ad the multiplus (as no other found anymore in setup).

Battery is at 100 % and not discharging.

Its a grid connected ESS system. What could have happend?

peterwolff asked
Paul B edited ·

0 Answers

Pylontech us3000 High Voltage Alarm


I know this Issue has had quite a lot of coverage and I have studied all the previous questions but still can't find a solution to this issue.

I have 18 pylontech us3000 battery modules connected to 3 x 15KVA Quattros, a Venus GX and a pylontech LV hub and I am running a single phase ESS system with a grid meter. I also have a 24Kw wind turbine on-site and the excess wind is captured by the ess until the batteries are full.

The system has been running now for a couple of months and is working great, however over the last few days we have had a lot of wind so the batteries have been at 99/100% charge for an extended period of time and this is when the warnings have occurred. I should say that at no point has the system shut down due to high voltage, I just keep getting high voltage notifications ranging from 53.57V to 53.59V.

When the system was first commissioned, the notifications appeared for a couple of days until the batteries balanced then the notifications stopped and everything was fine for weeks. The firmware is up to date on the GX and the Quattros, and I am aware of the higher voltage setting on the GX firmware v2.60 and I haven't tried using the older firmware to rectify the issue.

The reason being I was wondering if I could override the BMS and just charge the batteries to around 85-90%, basically to give the batteries an easier life. Is it just a case of dropping the float and absorption voltages on the quattros from 51.0V and 52.0V? Also what would be a reasonable level to set the "SOC unless grid fails" setting if battery longevity was my primary concern? - I currently have it set at 20% Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks


jonathanwalton asked
Paul B commented ·

2 Answers

No data from pylontech battery but connection is made?

Hello all,

I have a Quattro 24/5k/120 x (2), and Cerbo GX, and (3) Pylontech compatible batteries with 400Ah for about 1200AH total. I connected per Victron's Pylontech documentation and see that the Pylontech registers as a present. I'm just not seeing any voltage, current, temps, etc...

Has anyone experienced this? Any ideas where to start looking?

I've confirmed the cable pinout on CAT6 + shielding (run-length about 10'), dip switches on Pylontech batteries, CAN termination, etc...

Quattro firmware is 276 and Cerbo firmware is v.2.60

Pylontech battery reads 0s


Plytontech batteries are connected and talking - not sure if talking properly


Quattro is registering DC voltage from batteries:


High-level system schematic:


D S asked
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) commented ·

2 Answers

SOC no longer going below 40% in ESS


since a few days,I recognized that my MPII (cerbo + 3xUS3000) does not discharge the battery below 40% even the battery was charged during the day to 100%.

I cannot remember that I changed any settings but I had installed the v2.62~4 and v2.62~5, but went back to 2.60.

Does anybody can help?

hansbaer asked
Izak (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Pylontech SCS Shared Current Sense

The Pylontech documentation is silent on the SCS parameter:


Default is on. Must it be on? I will update it based on this answer.

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)

warwick asked
warwick commented ·

1 Answer

Pylontech Force-L2 and Victron compability

Dear All,

I am looking for information which confirms that Victron is compatible with Pylontech Force-L2 series battery.

Can someone confirm that for me?

Can someone explain to me that I am wrong?


Best Regards,


enersol asked
enersol answered ·

2 Answers

High voltage alarm pylontech

Hello, after looking on the community I can't find a correct answer.

the problem is a high voltage alarm on the ccgx. When the soc is 100% often the battery will get in high voltage alarm (above 54V).

the setup is done as discribed in the manual. e.a dvcc on, svs off, charge setting as discribed.

can anyone tell me where to look in the setup.

ESS system

Multiplus 2 3000/48

1 Pylontech us2000

1 SmartSolar Charger MPPT 150/35

Thanks in advance

marcel-dijkman asked
marcel-dijkman commented ·

3 Answers

Victron Multiplus Compact Inverter 24V/1600VA/230V with Pylontech UP2500


Can you please provide me with wiring diagrams for connecting the Multiplus Compact Inverter 24V/1600VA/230V with Pylontech UP2500? We would like to have a capacity of ~4kWH so it would required 2x UP2500. Please also provide inverter settings for the inverter.

Thanks in advance

powerlust asked
JohnC commented ·

1 Answer

Baud rate conflict 250/500kbit/s - Parallel Quattros-Cerbo-Pylontech-250/100MPPTs-Lynx....

Off-Grid system has 2 x Quattro 48/10000 in Parallel with 24 x Pylontech US2000 & LV HUB, Cerbo GX, Lynx Distribution system inc Lynx Shunt, 2 x 250/100 VE.Can MPPTs ground array, 2 x Fronius 6KW PV Inverters roof array. Perking 12kVA Generator. All kit a few months old. All Firmware updated to the very latest.

Following the Victron documentation Pylontech (Type B cable) to Cerbo VE.Can BMS connections. MPPTs and Lynx Shunt to Cerbo VE.Can connections. Quattros to VE.Bus connections. DVCC enabled, settings as per the book.

Problem: With CAN-bus BMS (500 kbit/s) CAN-profile in the CCGX as per the book, the MPPTs and Lynx Shunt disappear. They reappear if the baud rate is set to 250 kbit/s. Various problems manifesting such as auto-run generator stops working etc.

Am aware that others have had similar issues with the 250/500 kbit/s conflict. Any suggestions how to get round this - thinking switch the MPPTs to VE.Direct connection instead of Can but hate work-arounds and want the correct solution!

Thanks in advance!

colins asked
colins commented ·

1 Answer

Discharge Current Limit in Multiplus-ii with Pylontech and Cerbo

Hi, I have a question around the behaviour of the Multiplus-ii when connected to Cerbo GX with DVCC on under the control of Pylontech US3000.

The US3000 manual has the following current limits:
Recommend Charge/Discharge Current (A) 37
Max. Charge/Discharge Current (A) 74
Peak Charge/Discharge Current (A) 100A@15sec

The Cerbo DVCC Discharge Current Limit is set to 37A since plugging in the Pylontech cable to the Cerbo. What will happen when the load on the Multiplus causes DC current to exceed 37A? Will it just shut down or alarm, or something else?

I really need it to allow the Multiplus to operate within the specification of the battery, to allow for short-term high load scenarios as this is an entirely off-grid install with solar and backup generator.

Thanks, Chris.

chrisb13 asked
chrisb13 answered ·

2 Answers

Batterie bleibt seit ein paar Tagen immer auf ~100%

Anlage: 3x MultiplusII 5000, 3-phasig, 3x Pylontech US3000, Cerbo GX

seit ein paar Tagen bleibt der Akku immer auf ca. 100% und entlädt sich auch nicht wenn die Photovoltaik Leistung runtergeht. Er holt sich den kompletten benötigenden Srom aus dem Netz. Egal ob ich dem Modus: Optimiert (mit BatteryLife) oder Optimiert (ohne BatteyLife) auswähle, es bleibt immer gleich. Was könnte das sein ?



aharlach asked
Matthias Lange - DE commented ·

1 Answer

Pylontech UP2500 connection to Venus GX

I have 4 pylontech UP2500 connected to a VENUS GX and Smartsolart MPPT 150/60. On Victron connect I see a battery percentage on the top level but no battery appearing on the device list. The Smartsolar does appear, as does the Multiplus 5000 inverter. should the battries connect to the Venus GX via the Victron CanBus BMS TYPE B cable or should the batteries connect directly to the inverter using this cable? Help please.

jhass1 asked
MrMatrix answered ·

4 Answers

procedure pour rajouter une pylontech sur un pack de 4, installation multiplus2 5000 avec venus.


j'envisage de rajouter une pylontech sur un lot de 4 deja en fonctionnement, ces batteries sont branchées sur un multiplus 2/5000 avec venus,

je voudrais être sur afin de ne rien oublier.


unnovice asked
Thierry Cortassa (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

1 Answer

Off-Grid - Multiplus II GX and Pylontech/Liontron

I want to build an offgrid system that mainly will be used during the summer.

Briefly outlined:

Energy generation, storage:

  • Phoenix Combi 12V / 1600W (we already have)
  • 4x PV panel 300W
  • MPPT 250/100
  • Car battery 12V 45Ah


  • Waterpump 1 phase 800W - 230V, 1h/d during summer
  • Intrusion detection (SMS module ca 5W, 24h/7d)

The system will be placed in a gardenshed.

The following questions come to mind:

  1. On a sunny day, will the power flow directly from the MPPT to the inverter?
  2. Plans to a future upgrade to a 48V system. I made calculations for the battery pack and the result was a 4x 12V-110Ah Gel battery combination. This was based on the rule which limits the maximum charge and discharge currents in regards to their expected lifetime. For this 48V system i need 3 battery balancers, which have their costs. My friend google found the Pylontech or Liontron LiFePo rack system. These systems have an integrated BMS. Can I use the Multiplus II GX or EasySolar II GX for the communication with the BMS of the rack battery? Or do I need an seperate GX device. And what power consumption is to be expected from this GX device.
  3. Do I need in regard with the future, buy the MPPT with ve.can functionality for communication with battery rack?
  4. Shouldn't Victron upgrade their MPPT's to higher voltages? I understand that more PV-panels on a string is a better choice. 250V seams limited to me for future design, if compared to AC-grid inverters.

janvd asked
Vangelis Beligiannis edited ·

1 Answer

Pylontech (with needed ESS?) in an offgrid-installation


in the Victron product compatibility-list the pylontech batteries are listed to only can be used in an ESS-system. I think this is necessary of the CAN.Bus-Communication. This means that communication only works with the ESS assistant (why)?

I have to wait further 6 months for grid-connection to be built. For that time I want to build a small DC-Coupled PV and a Multiplus with Pylontech-Batteries. A big AC-coupled 30kWp-PV will follow next year. Since I wanted to install a Victron-ESS anyway I am wondering if I could use the pylontech also in an offgrid installation until the grid is ready?
Alternatively I wanted to install the ESS-Assistant offgrid and hoped i can use the pylontech without discharging them to 0% when grid isn't available at no time. I also don't know if a generator would be accepted in the AC-In then when a grid code has to be chosen.

I red that ESS shouldn't be used in an offgrid-installation neither. I know that ESS doesn't make sense in that situation, but it has du be used to use the pylontechs?
So is there a solution to use these components until grid will be available?

Thank you!

porcini asked
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) commented ·

4 Answers

RS 48/6000 and Pylontech batteries (how many?)

Hello everybody,

I have an offgrid installation with RS 48/6000 and 2x US2000 Pylontech batteries and I am wondering if two batteries is enough.

I can see that Victron has suggestion on how many batteries one needs for a properly functioning system depending on what Inverter/Charger one has. But the latest RS 48/6000 in not on the list!

It would be greatly appreciated if someone can provide any suggestions on how many Pylontech batteries are needed in a system with RS 48/6000.



Oleksandr asked
Keith Arnold commented ·

1 Answer

Unknown charging current limitation Multigrid 48/3000/35

My Multigrid 48/3000/35, Venus GX, BlueSolar Charger and Fronius Primo 3000 works with actual firmware. The problem is: Multigrid should charge the batteries with max 35A but he wouldn`t set the current above around 20A. So energy of the Fronius is feed to the grid. DVCC is set on, current limitation off, Pylontech parameters are 100A (4 batteries UB2000 Plus). See picture below.

What`s the problem?


moeterxl asked
moeterxl edited ·

2 Answers

4 Pylontech’s 2.4kwh only showing 75a ccgx/multiplus2 5000 70

Hi all, really hoping someone can help me with this.

i have 4 pylontech 2.4kwh batteries installed and only 3 are showing (75a). To my understanding as each battery is 25a and there’s 4 So I should be seeing 100a in The parameters Menu. I’m pretty sure they’re wired up correctly.

Any help would be greatly appreciated


kaijumod asked
marv21 edited ·

1 Answer

Pylontech and Victron (New Build) : Help Needed

Hello Everyone,

I have just joined this community so please bear with me.

I recently had a battery installed removed from my property as it did not do what i expected off the shelf. It was manufactured by a company called GivEnergy and it was a very poor product with many development issues.

Now i have decided to go out this myself.

I am looking at utilising either the Multiplus or Quattro Units along with Pylontech Batteries and wondered if you had any advice, comments or examples of system design/schematics.

The system is to integrate with an already install SolarEdge 6000 HD Inverter for my PV.

I am looking for storage capacity of approximately 21kw, so utilising the Pylontech 3000 Series batttery. The biggest request i have for the system is having a large discharge power as I have a Air Source Heat Pump which can take up to 5kw for Water Heating.

My idea was to use the Quattro 8000 Unit having the batteries wired in a stack of 8 with a ring circuit back to a DC Distribution. The batteries are to be controlled using a GX Device.

My question really revolves, any lessons learned? Does anyone have any advice on the Quattro and GX Devices.

Am i doing the right thing with this?

Any help is greatly appreciated.



mikeseaman3000 asked
mikeseaman3000 commented ·

1 Answer

Pylontech Charge Current Limit

I have 3 Pylontech US2000 Plus connected in parallel with a MultiPlus 48/3000/35 and a MPPT 150/45.

The CCL is set at 30A by the battery, is this because the MultiPlus can only charge with 35A and the battery knows this? I haven't connected the PV panels yet but when I do should I see this value raise to 75A as the MPPT can provide an extra 45A?

The DCL is set to 75A so I'm assuming that all 3 batteries are being detected and everything in the setup is fine. Any comments welcome please and thank you.


spudgun asked
lucode answered ·

4 Answers

169 Posts
217 Users

Topic Experts

100 Points
Jack Peters
1 Points