How can I add a cool down delay on a generator, such as Venus disconnect AC IN 1 when Generator signal is sent to shutdown the generator?

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Carlo asked Feb 13, '20

How can I add a cool down delay on a generator, such as Venus disconnect AC IN 1 when Generator signal is sent to shutdown the generator?

In a system with six(6) Quattros 10K configured in 3Phase and parallel, the backup generator we has a needs of 5 minute cool down period when the generator start signal is removed.

When the Venus relay removes the start signal in relay number 1 the Generator needs to be disconnected from the Quattros, is there a way to have the Quattros Disconnect AC IN 1 so that the generator continues running in its cool down period without load?

FYI we are using ESS, this issue happens when the grid has failed for a long time (days) and generator is turn on for its weekly excessive or when the battery is too low and needs to be charge enough to reach the next solar cycle.

In essence we would like the generator to run without load for a period of 5 minutes after the generator is not needed any more.

thanks

Carlo

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Charger Generator Venus GX - VGX

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Kienan answered · Mar 05 at 04:20 PM

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but as of 2023, Victron made an update where this is officially supported so long as you have a GX Device (like cerbo, ekrano, etc). Please see this Victron Post here -

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2023/05/31/venus-os-v3-00-generator-start-stop-improvements-ess-peak-shaving/

I'm only posting this since I had a client find this thread yesterday and thought that gen warmup and cooldown isn't supported since it wasn't back when this thread was active.

For systems without a GX Device, I've been doing gen warmup and cooldown with the assistants for a while now. That works quite well too, but the official method above is much nicer and easier.

Thanks,

Kienan

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Modifications Space

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Answer 1 · 2020-02-14T10:19:37Z

Rob Duthie answered · Feb 14, 2020 at 10:19 AM

Hi

You could fit a delay timer unit from the start control signal. There are din rail mounted industrial timers, that have multiple inputs to control time functions etc.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Carlo commented · Feb 14, 2020 at 05:20 PM

A time delay would not work, I would have to add a relay to shut down the 3 phase 200A circuit from the generator. I just wanted to know if this could be done with the Quattros since they have such a relay/switch inside.

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petajoule Carlo commented · Feb 15, 2020 at 11:23 AM

Hm. Do you have a GX device in there? (I suppose you have in such a larger installation)

There actually might be a way with a little hackery, where the GX would put all Quattros int Inverter Only mode for said 5 minutes.

It's not possible to switch between AC-IN1 and AC-IN2 "manually/on purpose" though. Which is a pity.

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petajoule petajoule commented · Feb 15, 2020 at 12:01 PM

I went (once again) down the rabbit hole that is Venus OS DBus and

root@ccgx:~# dbus-send --print-reply=literal --system --dest=com.victronenergy.vebus.ttyO1 /Mode com.victronenergy.BusItem.GetValue
   variant       uint32 3

It looks like it's there, so in theory one can hack it. Although ... holy sh*, what sadist is in charge of the DBus system in Venus OS?

a) it's not com.victronenergy.vebus as https://github.com/victronenergy/venus/wiki/dbus suggests, but com.victronenergy.vebus.ttyO1

b) mind you, that ttyO1 is really an O (as in "OOOOH") and not a zero.

Must be some Dutch Linux standard. ;-)

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Answer 2 · 2020-02-14T17:18:36Z

Carlo answered · Feb 14, 2020 at 05:18 PM

Remember that the problem is that even though the VENUS has discontinued the signal to keep the generator running. The generator continius to run for 5 extra minutes in a cooling down state. the Venus if it has decided to discontinue using the generator should also disconnect accepting power via AC IN #1. If it did then the generator would have zero load and would shutdown (cool down) correctly. Also if give time to the Quattros to transition from passthrough (GEN to LOAD) to inverter mode without the jolt of power in the AC IN #1 disappearing.

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mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented · Feb 14, 2020 at 09:15 PM

Hi @Carlo, I completely understand what you mean, and the benefits - but no we dont have such feature at the moment. sorry.

if required, it will need to be done by using external contactor(s) and time relays

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Answer 3 · 2020-02-15T13:05:14Z

Mark answered · Feb 15, 2020 at 01:05 PM

I think that you may be able to achieve a 'warm down' (and even a warm up) period by;

1. Physically wiring the GX device relay contacts into the Quattro 'Aux In' contacts

2. Using multiple assistants to;

a) 'Ignore AC Input' during the specified warm up/down period

b) Control a Quattro programmable relay, which can be used to start/stop the generator (generator auto-start connected to the Quattro programmable relay contacts instead of the GX device)

I have not tested this to confirm that it actually works, but this is what I suggest trying;

Wiring - refer to manual;

Assistants Tab

Assistant Summary

The example below should result in a 120s/2min warm up time/delay and 300s/5min warm down time/delay

Programmable Relay (1) Assistant - Step by step example

Select the relay to drive (physical K1/K2 or the 'General Flag' that can be allocated to a purpose in the 'General Flag User' assistant)

Select the relay action

Select the condition(s) to activate the relay action

Configure the condition and trigger delay - 300s/5min delay in this case (for the warm down period)

General Flag User assistant

Used to disconnect the AC input/generator during the warm up/down period

To configure an assistant you need to use a MK3 to USB interface;

https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/interface-mk3-usb

With VE.Configure software;

https://docs.victronenergy.com/veconfigure.html#warning

You can also use the 'fake target' demo mode in VE.Configure to see what's possible before you configure your real device.

If your not comfortable to do this yourself seek support from a qualified/competent Victron installer or Victron dealer.

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Mark ♦♦ commented · Feb 15, 2020 at 01:22 PM

I think this may also work ('AC1 available' used as the condition in 'programmable relay (3)' and should be a little more reliable/accurate with the warm up delay (as it will wait until the generator has started and the Quattro sees AC power at the input before the delay timer commences);

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russd Mark ♦♦ commented · Sep 05, 2021 at 02:23 PM

After getting the wiring right between the GX and aux in (directions below, thanks!) I also had to change the order of the assistants--I moved (2) below (3), so that the trigger on aux1 opening has priority over the AC1 power detected rule.

Now starting the generator through the GX sends the signal to start the generator and waits for (in my case 180) seconds before applying the AC load. The stop signal removes the AC load, waits 5 minutes, and sends the generator shutdown signal.

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russd commented · Sep 04, 2021 at 10:17 PM

1. Physically wiring the GX device relay contacts into the Quattro 'Aux In' contacts

GX relay has NC, NO, common; Aux in is +/-. What connects to what?

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mrhappy russd commented · Sep 05, 2021 at 03:58 AM

If you want a closed relay to close the Aux input then COM to one Aux terminal and NO to the other Aux terminal

If you want a closed relay to open the Aux input then COM to one Aux terminal and NC to the other Aux terminal

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Answer 4 · 2021-12-12T22:33:08Z

chrispendl answered · Dec 12, 2021 at 10:33 PM

I'm able to get "halfway there" with this. I'm able to accomplish the warm-up period of three minutes before the load is applied, but when it goes to cool down, it just delays the shutdown for 5 minutes without dropping the load. What am I missing?

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JohnC ♦ commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 05:41 AM

Hi @chrispendl

Try adding in a PR(4), General Flag, Set Relay On when AuxIn 1 is open for 1 sec (That will cut off acin2 when the signal to stop the genset happens).

Nice if these are all in correct order so you can follow it. Your PR (0,2,3) are for startup. PR(1) is for shutdown, so too PR(4). And a good coder might add in a PR(5) to leave the system 'stock' when charging is done with.

No warranty though, try it.. :)

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russd JohnC ♦ commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 11:42 AM

As I commented earlier above, flipping the order of #2 with #3 solved the problem Chris encountered. I've been using that for 3+ months now without issue.

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JohnC ♦ russd commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 12:14 PM

@russd

Yeh, that would work too. The issue there is that acin2 is always off when the start parameters aren't met. And you may need it on for testing or something.

It's what I meant by leaving the system 'stock'. My preference, but there is a choice..

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chrispendl JohnC ♦ commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 01:29 PM

Thanks! I think I'm close. Not it just ignores the AC2 input altogether. I'm guessing this has something to do with the order. Take a look and LMK. Thanks!

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JohnC ♦ chrispendl commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 01:50 PM

@chrispendl

You fouled up #3 (it's the same as #4).

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chrispendl JohnC ♦ commented · Dec 13, 2021 at 02:40 PM

Thanks! I was following the above note to add a PR(4) - how should this or PR(3) be different? I agree it is the same as PR(3).

Try adding in a PR(4), General Flag, Set Relay On when AuxIn 1 is open for 1 sec (That will cut off acin2 when the signal to stop the genset happens).

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JohnC ♦ chrispendl commented · Dec 14, 2021 at 06:53 AM

@chrispendl Try this (with brief explanations)..

System in default state, Acin2 available..

Set up GFlag..

Start genset..

At the same time, switch off Acin2..

After 3 min warmup, bring on Acin2..

So genset is now charging. Shutdown time.. First switch off the power..

And after 5 min turn off the genset..

Return system to default..

I hope I haven't fouled this up, and have it in a logical order! Ignore the PR#'s, these are just screensnips from various places. Untested, hey..

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Answer 5 · 2021-12-13T22:05:01Z

russd answered · Dec 13, 2021 at 10:05 PM

I think the issue is you followed my recommendation to change the order of 2 & 3 and John's recommendation to add a 4th. You can maintain the previous order and add 4 OR you can change the order of 2 and 3. I know the latter works (though maybe with the limitations he mentions); I'll defer to John's expertise on adding 4.

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Answer 6 · 2021-12-14T12:13:43Z

chrispendl answered · Dec 14, 2021 at 12:13 PM

@JohnC that did it. Thanks for the explanations on the different PRs...you taught me how to fish!

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Answer 7 · 2022-05-17T16:46:03Z

davejowen answered · May 17, 2022 at 04:46 PM

This is an amazing solution to help me fix my significantly less cool setup. Thank you to everyone that contributed and to the original poster for getting the ball rolling.

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Answer 8 · 2022-05-20T17:53:00Z

davejowen answered · May 20, 2022 at 05:53 PM

I’m hoping that all the knowledgeable people in this post can help me with my implementation of this feature. Mine differs a little bit and I can say that the assistants and options I chose are all functioning as expected, but I think there is something incorrect in my ordering.

I can achieve either a 120 second startup delay or 300 second cool down by changing the order, but not both. Can someone please help me?

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temagami-electrical-services commented · Dec 15, 2022 at 06:39 PM

@davejowen did you ever get this to work? I am currently trying to figure this out for a customers system, if you got this to work how did you connect your geny call wires to your inverter.

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davejowen temagami-electrical-services commented · Dec 15, 2022 at 09:38 PM

Hope this helps! It was to connect to an Onan which is a ground start type system. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CH7KJ39/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=whynotrv-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B07CH7KJ39&linkId=bc7ac1a4f39b6a93e0cc36535172ba1c

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Answer 9 · 2022-12-25T22:06:15Z

scraggs answered · Dec 25, 2022 at 10:06 PM

Being a bit stupid here but does this work in with the generator start and stop assistant so the generator works by battery voltage and it has the warm up and cool down period ?

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