Unstable Microgrid Multiplus II - Fronius

Question

question

popnic asked May 9, '22

Unstable Microgrid Multiplus II - Fronius

Setup:

Multiplus II 48 5000, Cerbo, Fronius 501 @ ACOut, no feed in,

Settings:

Fronius: - set to MG50,

Multiplus II:

* programmable relay and general flag assistants are used to ignore AC In1 if SOC >50% not ignore if SOC <30%;

* PV inverter support at last position in assistant list.

Fronius is connected via WIFI to Cerbo and it looks as it should.

Behavior:

Cerbo is showing: Fronius 350W, AC Load 105W.

The issue is that the battery state changes from charging with 900W to discharging with 700W couple of times per second. BMS shows similar values.

In this stage ESS assistant is not an option.

Somebody has this issue before, is there a fix for it ?

Multiplus-II Fronius microgrid

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shaneyake commented · May 09, 2022 at 11:51 PM

Can you post VRM screenshot of the Inverter Output Frequency?

Can you explain why you can't use ESS assistant? You can still disconnect from grid if you need too, even with ESS.

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popnic shaneyake commented · Jun 15, 2022 at 10:10 PM

@shaneyake Thank you for reply.

Currently I am using ESS assistant and PV inverter connected at AC out of Multiplus 2 and the system is disconnected from grid as you suggested.

The frequency is 49.9 to 50.1 in normal condition and is going above 52Hz when the load is low and the battery is full.

Having LED lamps I did not notice that the AC voltage is fluctuating 2-4 times per second. This is visible on bulb lamp. This is happening only when the PV inverter power is close to the load power.

Sending energy to the grid is not allowed by energy distribution company. I did settings in Cerbo > Settings > ESS to avoid this but still the energy meter shows that Multiplus send energy to the grid.

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fnaf commented · May 15, 2022 at 02:01 PM

Are you in any way linked to the grid? If I were you, I would operate the ESS assistant while ignoring the PV inverters that are not necessary. five nights at freddy's

What nation do you reside in?

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popnic fnaf commented · Jun 15, 2022 at 10:24 PM

@fnaf

The grid is available and I want to use the grid when is not enough power from the Sun.

To use PV inverters without grid it has to be AC coupled. I want to have this option when the grid fails.

I am living in Romania (Europe)

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marekp answered · Jun 22, 2022 at 07:09 AM

@popnic

Make sure that internal CT of MP-II is not disconnected due to faulty 3.5mm external CT jack.

Maybe "3.5mm jack trick" will work for you.

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/136049/critical-load-shows-high-values-how-can-i-check-th.html

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popnic commented · Jun 22, 2022 at 12:36 PM

@MarekP

Definitely that is the issue! Thank you.

I was a bit desperate and I ordered a current transformer for Multiplus 2 because measuring with the clamp meter the AC In1 shows values that can be roughly calculated from AC Out and Battery power and far from 0.

CT comes today and I was curious if the situation will improve and it does! Multiplus works fine with CT and Cerbo shows values close to reality.

After I removed the CT also the internal sensor start to work as it should, showing similar values as with CT.

Never touch that input until now. Hope is nothing wrong with that connection.

Thank you very much for reply.

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Modifications Space

Node Red Space

Answer 1 · 2022-05-09T07:54:40Z

Rob Duthie answered · May 09, 2022 at 07:54 AM

Hi

Need more details of what type system you have off grid, grid tie etc, battery type etc.

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Answer 2 · 2022-05-09T16:37:56Z

popnic answered · May 09, 2022 at 04:37 PM

@Rob Duthie

This is how my grid tie system looks like.

Multiplus II ignore the grid except when SOC <30% when it start to charge the battery form the grid up to 50%.

Battery LiFePo4 230Ah connected to MP2 with 2x2m(6ft) 50mm2 welding cable.

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Answer 3 · 2022-05-09T20:52:50Z

Rob Duthie answered · May 09, 2022 at 08:52 PM

Hi

Are you connected to the grid at all? if i was you run the ESS assistant ignore the PV inverters not required.

What country are you from installed?

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popnic commented · Jun 17, 2022 at 08:30 AM

@Rob Duthie

I want to use microgrid and i experiment what is happening when the grid is off. So for this we can consider off grid setup.

"if i was you run the ESS assistant ignore the PV inverters not required".

What do you mean by that? Now the ESS asistant looks like this:

If PV inverter is not set in ESS assistant I think that Multiplus will not do frequency shifting and Fronius will increase the voltage, right?

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shaneyake popnic commented · Jul 05, 2022 at 07:18 AM

Yes, if PV inverter not setup in ESS then battery will be overcharged till inverter or BMS hits DC overvoltage, not great for the battery.

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Answer 4 · 2022-05-10T11:17:56Z

popnic answered · May 10, 2022 at 11:17 AM

@Rob Duthie

Grid is available, MP2 is physically connected to the grid to charge the battery if is not enough energy from the sun.

Grid fed in is allowed only for prosumers which I am not yet. From that reason I cannot use ESS and grid connection in this phase.

I will try ESS without grid connection to see if the system is stable.

Thank you for the hint.

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Answer 5 · 2022-06-10T10:58:42Z

popnic answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 10:58 AM

@Rob Duthie

The charging-discharging is still there.

The MP2 is set with ESS and Fronius set to MG50 is connected at AC Out1. AC In is disconnected.

On every 3 to 5 seconds the MP2 is switching the current flow direction as below:

All the loads are connected to AC Out 1

Cerbo GX and MP 2 48-5000 firmware are up to date.

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Answer 6 · 2022-06-10T11:06:33Z

baxter answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 11:06 AM

If all loads are connected to ACout1, why are there no critical loads shown? is the inverter ac output in use enabled?

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shaneyake commented · Jun 19, 2022 at 12:01 AM

critical loads will only be shown if there is a grid meter.

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Answer 7 · 2022-06-10T11:36:27Z

popnic answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 11:36 AM

@Baxter

AC Out1 is critical (essential) load. My microgrid setup looks like this:

AC Out 2 is with relay and is not enabled and not connected.

More about the issue:

And what GX device is showing:

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Answer 8 · 2022-06-10T12:05:29Z

baxter answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 12:05 PM

You are writing that all loads are connected to ACout1, so critical loads or no break loads. If you are running ESS enable the inverter AC output setting

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Answer 9 · 2022-06-10T14:12:42Z

popnic answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 02:12 PM

@Baxter

I did the settings you indicate but charging/discharging the battery is there

Same issue...

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Answer 10 · 2022-06-10T17:47:56Z

gary-moor answered · Jun 10, 2022 at 05:47 PM

I've got a similar problem. Battery is charging and discharging in the same setup as above. I've found when I disconnect the grid meter, then the inverter changes to passthru and the battery state is stable again....

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Answer 11 · 2022-06-12T05:40:05Z

popnic answered · Jun 12, 2022 at 05:40 AM

With or without meter, is the same.

Yesterday I found that if the production is high enough (>800W) charging quasi constant and the system is stable.

To be continued ...

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Answer 12 · 2022-06-17T11:29:15Z

popnic answered · Jun 17, 2022 at 11:29 AM

I found today that the AC voltage is fluctuating when the system becomes unstable.

The bulb lights flickering.

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shaneyake commented · Jun 19, 2022 at 12:03 AM

Can you please post a picture of the AC output frequency and AC output current rom the Advanced tab on VRM?

Most likely the inverter and PV inverter don't have the same frequency settings configured.

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popnic shaneyake commented · Jun 22, 2022 at 07:43 AM

System not connected to the utility grid. Frequency 50 50.1 Hz.

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Jun 19, 2022 at 11:00 AM

@popnic

How is SOC being measured? Are they smart batteries with comms to the GX? Maybe add a BMV in there and see uf that helps.

I have also seen sometimes there is like a lag in the system where the tiles do not all correspond. All the tiles uodating differently. Try using a constant load like a geyser and see if the same thing is happening.

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popnic Alexandra ♦ commented · Jun 20, 2022 at 08:01 AM

Hello @Alexandra,

Thank you for reply.

The SOC is estimated by Multiplus 2, not a smart batteries. My BMS will be connected to Multiplus 2 but isn't yet.

I will consider your suggestion.

Updating the tiles is not an issue for me. The problem is that the energy is going back and forth 2-4 times per second and the voltage is fluctuating between 210V and 245V.

I suppose that Fronius and Victron controller's are not matched together and becomes unstable in some circumstances.

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Answer 13 · 2022-06-20T11:00:19Z

popnic answered · Jun 20, 2022 at 11:00 AM

Another stability issue ESS microgrid AC coupled PV inverter connected to utility grid.

Fronius Zero feed in = Yes in Cerbo GX so modbus tcp communication are ok (and hard wired not WiFi)

This is anything but zero:

The load is around 115W and in the what is showing in the AC Load tile is actually the power that both PV inverter and multiplus are feeding to the grid. I measure the AC In1 current and the measurement confirm it but Grid tile say "0".

And this with AC in disconnected from the utility grid and

Fronius Zero feed in = No in Cerbo GX.

Have you encounter this issue?

Any suggestion where this is coming from?

Thank you in advance.

Temporary Solved using 3.5mm jack trick!

Continued here:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/136049/critical-load-shows-high-values-how-can-i-check-th.html

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Answer 14 · 2022-07-04T15:40:15Z

popnic answered · Jul 04, 2022 at 03:40 PM

Dears,

Off grid AC coupled microgrid issue is still not solved.

AC voltage is going up and down 2-3 times per second between 210 and 240V

This is happening only when solar power is low (<800W) and close to the load, way before Multiplus is starting to increase the frequency to control Fronius.

Actually when frequency shift starts, the system is very stable.

Fronius PV support was involved. They want to install older firmware in the Primo but it looks that Primo does not accept that old firmware version (32071). They tested the Primo uploading the current firmware 33151 version via web and works fine. I did it via USB and works just fine.

Fronius PV suport team doesn't come back to me with a firmware or other solution. Maybe they are working on a firmware but it is a week since last mail from them.

Bulb light flickering is only the annoying part but charging and discharging the battery 2-3 times per second at +/-10 to 30 Amps half of an hour or more everyday it cannot be something good for the battery.

Above, Rob, suggest to ignore PV inverter in ESS.PV inverter is already in place. Maybe I will add an another Mppt Controller and more panels in the future but now I have to deal with microgrid and this Victron - Fronius mix of species.

Any idea?

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shaneyake commented · Jul 05, 2022 at 07:15 AM

You can try telling ESS that you have more PV than you actually do, this should make the inverter throttle down faster and could avoid the oscillations.

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popnic shaneyake commented · Jul 06, 2022 at 04:43 PM

@shaneyake

You are talking about those values?

I will try to tell the truth to Multiplus 2 first and after that I will lie it with higher values.

Thank you.

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shaneyake popnic commented · Jul 06, 2022 at 09:22 PM

Yes, those are the values I am talking about. Were they not configured before?

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popnic shaneyake commented · Jul 07, 2022 at 10:31 AM

@shaneyake

It was configured like in the picture above. Primo's power is 5000W so the settings was not correct.

Today is cloudy and PV power is around 400W and SOC between 60 and 70%.

I did tests with 2500/2500 as before, 5000/2500, 5000/10000 5000/1000, 10000/10000.

No effect. Still lights flickering and charge/discharge 2-3 times per second when PV power is low.

Maybe those settings has effect when the SOC is close to 100% and Primo is throttled by frequency shift but there are no issues.

Do I set more extreme values/combinations?

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shaneyake popnic commented · Jul 07, 2022 at 03:31 PM

Those frequency and power settings are what control the frequency shifting.

Those settings will have an effect at high SOC or if the multplus is approaching overload.

What size multi and what size primo do you have?

I wouldn't go to more than double that is actually installed for those settings.

From you image above it does look like you have frequency shift happening, back and forth.

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Answer 15 · 2022-07-08T06:59:54Z

popnic answered · Jul 08, 2022 at 06:59 AM

@shaneyake

Thank you for explanation. You confirm that my understanding based on ESS documentation and webinar is correct.

The size of Primo is 5000W and size of Multiplus is 5000VA the battery is LFP 230Ah

Flickering issue is taking place where is no frequency shift at all and PV power is <800W.

Looking closer, AC output voltage variation is dependent on PV power. Lower the power higher the AC pulse amplitude and less pulses per second. Close to 800W the AC voltage is pulsating faster (10 times/s) at lower amplitude. If PV power increases above 800W no more flickering.

While AC frequency is 49.9 50.1 Hz.

Today is a sunny day and PV power is above 800W already so I miss the opportunity to do any tests.

Any suggestions?

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shaneyake commented · Jul 08, 2022 at 03:41 PM

That is very strange behavior I have never seen that before. I would think something is wrong with the PV inverter or the multiplus. Lots of people have that setup with no problems so I would think faulty hardware.

Last thing to try would be to disconnect the Primo from the network so the Cerbo and Primo can't communicate and see if that changes anything.

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popnic shaneyake commented · Jul 11, 2022 at 04:23 PM

@shaneyake

This is not an uncommon issue and it is known by Victron and Fronius https://www.victronenergy.com/live/_media/ess:2016_-_ess_training2.pptx (see slide 19)

.Only some of questions from community:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/3342/flickering-lights-in-home.html

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/118857/lights-flickering.html

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/126924/micro-grid-with-multiplus-ii-and-fronius-primo-cau.html

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/119345/fronius-primo-501-voltage-pulsating-problem-after.html

Unfortunately the firmware that fix the issue with Fronius is not compatible anymore with this Fronius Primo.

Most of the end users or installers are looking on the effect like bulb lights flickering and some of them do not see anything because they use good LED lamps.

But if the battery current is changing form -20 to +20 amps 3-4 times per second 2 hours per day every day or maybe whole day something in the system will be damaged soon.

I did test as you suggested. Cerbo completely off, Primo network off, wifi off. No difference, AC output up and down, DC current from negative to positive as before.

Thank you for your support.

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shaneyake popnic commented · Jul 12, 2022 at 12:53 AM

That makes more sense. We don't use zero feed-in so haven't seen this problem before but still strange that off-grid operation doesn't work.

We tend to use SolarEdage or Enphase inverters for our PV but frequency shift works great and I haven't seen any flicking at home or client sites.

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Answer 16 · 2022-07-12T08:12:25Z

popnic answered · Jul 12, 2022 at 08:12 AM

@shaneyake

Zero fed in feature is used when Multiplus is connected to the utility grid. Then Victron cannot change the frequency of the grid and Fronius is throtled by Victron. This is working just fine.

In off grid mode, the flickering issue take place when Victron let the PV inverter to provide all the power from PV and frequency shift does not start to throtle Fronius.

The newest Fronius firmware fro33160 has some effects on the AC pulsation issue:

- starts at 100W PV power vs <100W,

- ends at approx 500W, and highest pulse amplitude is close to 250W PV power vs. 800W and 400W max amplitude;

Much better but not as it should be.

Nobody want strange noises from the fridge and strange lamp flickering without considering other aspects.

I will contact Fronius and Victron again and again to solve the issue. They offered this microgrid option, I did a choice based on that, they should make it work.

Thank you .

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popnic commented · Jul 12, 2022 at 12:28 PM

Frequency shift works as it should. When the battery voltage is close to the absorbtion, the frequency is increases and PV inveter power is controlled by Multiplus.

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Answer 17 · 2022-08-05T08:38:07Z

popnic answered · Aug 05, 2022 at 08:38 AM

Update.

Nothing good happened. Fronius Tech Support contacted me by mail.

They tried to upload the firmware 32071 via Web but they failed. They send me the file 32070 for USB upload but I got error 743 and 735 from Primo.

Finally I got the message from Fronius that they have in plan to solve the issue by the end of October 2022.

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Answer 18 · 2022-08-25T20:47:27Z

popnic answered · Aug 25, 2022 at 08:47 PM

Update

Fronius PV support contact me again by mail.

They really do their best to help me to solve the AC voltage fluctuations.

They admit that the firmware version 32071 is not accepted by new Primo's.

They send me a fix procedure and code to access the menu where I can tune the a power increase or decrease gradient. Default value was 0.3%/s. I tried 0.1, 0.05, 1, 10, 100.

No improvements.

Meanwhile the installed solar power was increased to 6.4kWp in two equal strings. This does not help. The issue is still there.

It looks that Fronius changed something in Primo without taking in account that the changes will affect microgrid functionality.

To be continued...

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Frank commented · Aug 26, 2022 at 04:08 AM

Please keep me posted as I have 3 systems that are flickering with Ac cup Victron fronius

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Oliver commented · Sep 02, 2022 at 03:14 AM

Thank you @popnic very much for your contribution! I am pre-commissioning a clients new Primo 4.6 for exclusively offgrid with MP II 5000. Currently it holds the latest firmware and I unsuccessfully tried to roll back to fro32071 via USB. Same error 743 and 735. If you have any news, please update, your contribution is very helpful. Apparently I am in the same situation as you. Which language did you contact Fronius?

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Answer 19 · 2022-08-26T04:33:00Z

Rob Duthie answered · Aug 26, 2022 at 04:33 AM

Hi

I have systems running with the Fronius Primo in MG mode with no issues running the latetest firmware,etc. I own one runs in MG mod at home.

All with the Victron Multiplus2. 5kW units

Have you checked the grid impedance etc?

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Answer 20 · 2022-09-05T08:30:32Z

Oliver answered · Sep 05, 2022 at 08:30 AM

@Rob Duthie which serial number range are your Primos? I have a new one with serial number 33334xxx and can not perform a rollback to a previous firmware version and the Primo currently runs with FW: fro33160. I also get the described flickering issue.

@popnic did you find a solution to your problem? I am all curious.

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Answer 21 · 2022-09-05T18:24:47Z

@Oliver

Thank you for reply.

I contact Fronius PV Support in English. (sorry for my English)

Since my last post, an another guy from PV Support contact me by mail again with "downdate" the firmware to 32071. They do not read previous emails from others from same team. I have more than 10 messages from them, one per week or one per two weeks. They really try to solve my "CAS"

My hope is that the firmware from Oct 2022 will solve the issue as one support team member who took the issue seriously write to me.

Meanwhile I use the MP2 5k connected to the grid, set ac input limit to 30W.

This setting avoid grid fed in (disabled in Cerbo) but I still have approx 1kW /day to pay. This is the price that I have to pay in addition because I have a new Fronius and I want to keep my system stable.

Anyway more restrictive rules are applied starting from May 2022 for prosumers in RO, EU. We have to put a counter from distribution operator to measure directly the PV aside of the necessary bidirectional counter.

PV energy surprising me every day.

@Rob Duthie

The stability issue take place when the grid is not connected.

I use 6mm2 copper conductors between Fronius and Victron. Now there are 12m between them.

All my important load are connected with 4mm2 and 2.5mm2 with max 12m length all copper and strong connections. My first idea was that the conductor resistance is the cause but I found that with 2m of conductors the behavior is the same.

I will ask an installer to measure the house grid impedance in MG mode if is possible.

Thank you for suggestion.

Answer 22 · 2022-09-08T04:30:36Z

Oliver answered · Sep 08, 2022 at 04:30 AM

I have written to Fronius service a week ago, but so far did not get any answer. I found the following observation interesting: The flickering does not happen while in power state mode 560 (P(f) is ON). When in this state I can observe that in my case reactive power shows a negative value (e.g. "-1"). When flickering/pulsating happens this value is positive. In the advanced settings you might be able to set a reactive power (kind of introducing an offset)? Or a dirty workaround could even be to set the F limit frequency down to 50.0 Hz forcing the Fronius to work in Power State 560 always. As the Multiplus frequency is very stable at 50 Hz only a very tiny power reduction would happen. (I wonder if power reduction % is happening from inverter P nominal? Or from highest P daily?)

But honestly I wished Fronius would provide a solution soon. @popnic (your English is great, I perfectly understand all of what you are writing)

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Answer 23 · 2022-09-08T10:03:03Z

popnic answered · Sep 08, 2022 at 10:03 AM

@Oliver

Fronius PV Support will contact you for sure.

They emailed me today and they offer two options to me:

Wait to the middle of October when a beta version of firmware will be available or

Replace the inverter with older hardware version one.

I chose to wait until October, see how it works.

In MG mode, normal mode, Victron set the frequency very close to 50Hz and Fronius will deliver all the power is possible from PV panels.

If Victron need to control the power form Fronius it increase the frequency. For my understanding this is roughly how frequency shift works.

In Profi menu you can set a lot of things but I think that you must know what you are doing. Maybe you can find a solution.

Good luck!

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Answer 24 · 2022-10-14T08:17:05Z

jeanmarie answered · Oct 14, 2022 at 08:17 AM

Any news about this case @popnic ?

I'm in the same case (fronius Primo in bus AC mode) and also experiencing flickering while disconnected from grid

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Answer 25 · 2022-10-14T09:23:10Z

popnic answered · Oct 14, 2022 at 09:23 AM

@jeanmarie

Thank you for your interest in the subject.

Last message from Fronius PV Support - two weeks ago - was that they close my case. This was because I decide to wait the firmware version that fix that flickering issues for new hardware inverters promised at the middle of October this year.

The fix firmware is not available yet.

Best wishes,

Nic

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Answer 26 · 2022-10-18T08:34:48Z

romo answered · Oct 18, 2022 at 08:34 AM

Hi popnic,

I'm aslo from Romania and I'm using Victron Easyplus II in conbination with a Fronius Primo 3.5-1 on AC coupling. I had also notice the battery state changes from charging/discharging couple of times per second but only when the battery is almost full and bulk is finished. This was happend before to become prosumator and also now as a prosumator feeding the grid.

Do you have your system on VRM World? You coud see mine as RoMo - Cumpana.

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popnic commented · Nov 08, 2022 at 05:25 PM

@RoMo

Battery charging-discharging issue is happening also without PV AC coupled inverter connected?

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Answer 27 · 2022-11-06T11:30:37Z

popnic answered · Nov 06, 2022 at 11:30 AM

Related to unstable microgrid with MP2 and Fronius Primo.

Fronius PV Support closed my case. I contact them again asking about the status of the firmware for new hardware version of Primo's. I will come back with updates if any.

@RoMo

What battery you use and what floating and absorption settings in charger section of Easyplus you have?

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romo commented · Nov 06, 2022 at 11:55 AM

I have LiFeYPO4 from GWL.

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1667735736536.png (4.6 KiB)

romo romo commented · Nov 06, 2022 at 12:45 PM

16S

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1667735924099.png (346.7 KiB)

Answer 28 · 2022-11-06T12:44:28Z

popnic answered · Nov 06, 2022 at 12:44 PM

@RoMo

Charger settings are more or less ok.

In VRM I see that your system does not go into absorption nor in float so the charging cycle is not complete.

Maybe absorption time set to 0.25 and some settings in general settings as SOC when bulk finished set to 95-98.

A battery current and voltage widget added to VRM will show some additional clues...

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romo commented · Nov 06, 2022 at 12:58 PM

How did you see that my sytem is not going in absorbtion?

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popnic romo commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 05:08 PM

@Romo

Fortunately it goes.

At first glance I looked at SOC and I see that your smartshunt it shows max 85%.

Maybe smartshunt synchronization will help. Chapter 5.7

https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/SmartShunt/en/operation.html#UUID-477eccf1-c937-c9b9-765e-d7dccd1a54d6

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romo popnic commented · Nov 09, 2022 at 01:40 PM

I know that. I'm synchronizing the shunt monthly. This could be seen on the history trend how SOC slowly dropping from 100% to 80% and sudenly back to 100% when I'm synchronize it.

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popnic romo commented · Nov 10, 2022 at 03:43 PM

@RoMo I understand that smartshunt synchronization does not help since you did it before.

You encounter the issue when you use only MPPT controller or only AC coupled inverter?

Or when you disconnect the grid?

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romo popnic commented · Nov 11, 2022 at 05:06 AM

I didn't pay attention to it. Probably is happening because I did not set the the parameters for Auto Synchronisation corectly. The Tail Current it was set 1%, I just increased to 3% and detection time to 5min.

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Answer 29 · 2022-11-07T01:09:15Z

Dave Rae answered · Nov 07, 2022 at 01:09 AM

Hi,

Victron has change something with their recent firmware updates, I have an AC/DC coupled system that used to function well, AC coupled side covered the daytime loads no problem while the DC coupled side just trickled away. Now all the loads are being covered by the DC coupled side and the Fronius is shutdown on 52.8Hz until the loads increase beyond the capacity of the DC coupled side to handle. The system has been biased towards the DC coupled side now which is defeating the whole point of the more efficient AC coupled system covering the loads directly in the daytime.

I have turned off my two 150/70 MPPT's to force the system to use the Primo now until Victron fix this issue.

Cheers

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shaneyake commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 10:50 AM

Can you explain the problem? Is the PV not covering the loads? Why does it matter if it is DC or AC coupled PV powering the loads as long as the system is covering the loads.

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popnic shaneyake commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 05:35 PM

@Dave Rae

I think I understand the problem. Multiplus increase the frequency to diminish the power of AC coupled inverter in relationship with the battery and load as PV AC power = Multiplus power + Load power.

By Multiplus power I mean AC to DC or DC to AC conversion in Multiplus.

In your case, Multiplus think that the battery is full and it takes the whole energy from DC side as much it can then ask for more power from AC coupled inverter by reducing the frequency if the load is high.

Did you checked the voltage settings for battery and MPPT's?

Firmware downgrade is possible?

Hope you will find the solution.

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Dave Rae shaneyake commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 07:32 PM

Hi, that's the whole point of direct DC to AC conversion, use it first and straight away before it's converted back to DC to charge the battery. If it spends most of the day off and loads are covered by MPPT,S it's defeated the idea behind AC coupled systems.

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shaneyake Dave Rae commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 10:21 PM

@popnic I don't think there is anything wrong, systems seems to be working correctly.

@Dave Rae Yes, it is more efficient to go from DC to AC to Load but from what you have described your loads are less than the DC coupled PV. So your system has to curtail excess energy anyways so why do you care about efficiency? If the Multiplus is going to 52hz then it can hold the DC bus stable and just directly consume the power from the MPPTs once you start to discharge the battery it will slowly ramp up the AC PV.

If you turn on big load the system will use both the AC and DC PV to power the loads and the extra efficiency from the AC coupled PV will be used and you will get the advantage of AC PV.

AC PV advantage is so that you can run a smaller array when designing the system but has no effect on a system that is already curtailing excess energy.

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baxter commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 05:34 PM

Which firmware versions are you using so other users can check or avoid updates?

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Dave Rae baxter commented · Nov 07, 2022 at 08:08 PM

I have a suspicion that the issue is related to the interaction between the Multiplus II and the new version 1.61 firmware that I have installed on the MPPT's. From the documentation I have read that it cannot be downgraded either. Also, I do not see a legacy version of the A063 MPPT firmware on the Victron professional firmware section just the already installed v1.61.

I have upgraded and downgraded both the CCGX firmware and also the PV Inverter support Assistant to the latest and back again, but the issue remains which leads me to think it's the MPPT firmware because that's the only one I can't roll back.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

CCGX v2.85

Smart Solar Charger MPPT 150/70 A063 v1.61

Multiplus II 48/10000 v498

PV Inverter Support Assistant v0172

Cheers.

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Answer 30 · 2022-11-09T08:21:26Z

Rob Duthie answered · Nov 09, 2022 at 08:21 AM

Hi All

Latest update loaded new firmware fro upd33350 for Primo 5kw, flickers real bad at any loads.

I have swapped to Fimer Uno inverter 5kw version as a test, no problems at all perfect. The issue is with Fronius inverter firware updates so changing over to Fimer now.

Is Fronius listening?

Change log below they say they fixed in this changlog note on pg161 for Primo MG50-60 modes.

Note: installed a Fimer UNO inverter 5kw no issues with microgrid mode go figure.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

Fronius SE_FW_Changelog_Fronius_Galvo_Symo_Primo_Eco_DE-EN (8).pdf

fronius-se-fw-changelog-fronius-galvo-symo-primo-e.pdf (3.6 MiB)

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Answer 31 · 2022-11-09T10:18:31Z

popnic answered · Nov 09, 2022 at 10:18 AM

Thank you @Rob Duthie for reply. It is sad that new Fronius firmware updates are generating problems.

Fronius updated the firmware 333350 in my still experimental installation this morning at 4AM local hour.

The flickering effect is not more or less than before but it is there.

I am still waiting for firmware that works...

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Answer 32 · 2022-11-09T12:34:02Z

popnic answered · Nov 09, 2022 at 12:34 PM

Fronius firmware 333350:

I had a chance look closer to the system while is cloudy and AC coupled PV inverter production is low and quasi equal to consumption approx (200-400W).

When it start to flicker, the voltage amplitude variation is less than before but still 217-242Vac and the pulsating hum form MP2 is also less. In same time the battery current is -7 to +8Adc half than it was before.

It is still bad but now I am more confident to let the system to do its job disconnected for the grid for a 1 day.

@jeanmarie , @Oliver , have you tried this 333350 firmware?

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Rob Duthie commented · Nov 09, 2022 at 06:18 PM

Hi

Still the same issue with flicking.

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Answer 33 · 2022-11-09T13:18:08Z

jeanmarie answered · Nov 09, 2022 at 01:18 PM

not yet.

I just checked for it, but seems my inverter doesn't find any newer firmware than the installed one (3.23.6-1)

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Answer 34 · 2022-11-11T08:25:59Z

popnic answered · Nov 11, 2022 at 08:25 AM

Dear all,

Fronius PV support fix the problem for my experimental installation.

As I posted above, the latest firmware upd33350 did some improvements but was not enough so it was necessary to adjust parameters in Fronius Primo Profi Menu.

I think that Fronius will share the fix method to installers soon.

Thank you all for your support and patience.

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Rob Duthie commented · Nov 12, 2022 at 11:41 AM

Hi Ponic

So what were the Profi menu changes? in the MG50 mode i am a Fronius installer, so now how to access the Profi menu code etc.

All i done to date was to down grade the firmware to fro32070, to make it work with no issues to date in testing.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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popnic Rob Duthie commented · Nov 13, 2022 at 07:14 PM

@Rob Duthie

I suggest to ask Fronius about upd33350 and the flickering fix. You will have the complete info directly from source.

It is good that you were able to upload the firmware upd32070.

@jeanmarie Fronius PV support team want to do this in my case. They sent to me the file upd32070 but it was not accepted by the inverter.

Sorry if my posts mislead you.

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Oliver popnic commented · Sep 30, 2023 at 01:18 PM

@popnic

So I really wonder if finally Fronius managed to supply you with a working firmware and your flickering is solved?

As I was in the same situation and this issue consumed so many of my working hours ( I am PV installer) since then I only sell SMA PV inverters to my customers that need AC-coupling.

I can only warn that certain Primo inverter from a certain serial number onwards are NOT compatible/suited for P(f) together with Victron Multiplus II in what we call AC-coupling.

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) are you aware of this specific incompatibility? Any news about which serial numbers were (or still are) affected?

So far I don't dare doing any further firmware updates (now running a beta one with very specific settings)

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popnic Oliver commented · Sep 30, 2023 at 06:46 PM

@Oliver Good to hear from you. The flickering issues for that particular installation was solved since 2022 and it still working great.

@jeanmarie shared the instructions from Fronius. I did same steps.

Good luck!

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Answer 35 · 2022-11-12T09:09:47Z

jeanmarie answered · Nov 12, 2022 at 09:09 AM

Thank you for the feed back @popnic

Hope they will share it widely also for self installers

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Answer 36 · 2022-11-12T09:52:17Z

Rob Duthie answered · Nov 12, 2022 at 09:52 AM

Hi All

Down graded to version fro 32070.upd so after after testing no flicker so far.

Used USB to upload the downgraded firmware.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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jeanmarie commented · Nov 12, 2022 at 02:15 PM

Hi @Rob Duthie , how did you manage to

1) get this firmware?

2) upload it to your inverter? as popnic tried it but unsuccessfully

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Rob Duthie jeanmarie commented · Nov 12, 2022 at 09:09 PM

Hi

I am a installer so i have access i can send you a copy if required?

Just install onto a usb stick and acces the front menu called USB and upload with no issues.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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jeanmarie Rob Duthie commented · Nov 13, 2022 at 09:36 AM

Ok thank you @Rob Duthie, after reading messages from @popnic I thought it was not possible to install an older firmware (some program doesn't allow it).

If this old firmware solves the flickering issue, why is this not advised by fronius to downgrade to it?

Yes I'm interested in getting a copy of it, let me know how to, as sharing emails through a public forum is not really advised

regards

Jean-Marie

PT

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Rob Duthie jeanmarie commented · Nov 14, 2022 at 02:31 AM

Hi all

Testing to date with those changes, not much happens there low power output etc. Fronius should just front up with correct firmware and setting not muck around.

There is more to those settings that are required?

The fro32070 just works well. why change and waste time.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Dave Rae Rob Duthie commented · Nov 14, 2022 at 07:35 PM

Hello,

Can you share the 32070.upd file ...

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Rob Duthie Dave Rae commented · Nov 14, 2022 at 07:43 PM

Send me your email address

Do you know how to acces the Profi menu? as you need to change a setting in there as well.

Will explain in the email.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Dave Rae Rob Duthie commented · Nov 15, 2022 at 02:22 AM

tech1969@pm.me

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spatula commented · Jul 24, 2023 at 08:35 AM

Thanks. I've got the same problem and I've passed your recommendation on to my installer.

Regards

Spatula

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Answer 37 · 2023-07-24T12:59:14Z

jeanmarie answered · Jul 24, 2023 at 12:59 PM

There seems to be an official answer from Fronius that doesn't involve firmware.

Sorry it is in french, must exist in english/german, should ask fronius :

flick1.jpg (67.8 KiB)

flick2.jpg (48.5 KiB)

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spatula commented · Jul 26, 2023 at 07:09 AM

Thank you Jeanmarie, BUT this did not work. After having gone through this process I'm of the opinion that changing the power gradient (the rate at which the power is varied adapted to the demand) is not the answer. Here's a summary of what I tried - with the help of my installer:

Switched on both up and down power gradients

Checked both settings and they were 0.3 initially but did not try them like that.

Tried the following:

0.95

1.0

0.30

2.0

4.0

8.0

Set back to 0.3 and switched off both up and down power gradients.

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Rob Duthie spatula commented · Jul 26, 2023 at 08:28 AM

Hi

Change trhe firmware to older version to solve the issues with flicking.

This is what i have done to all my install with micro modes.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Oliver Rob Duthie commented · Jul 26, 2023 at 11:33 AM

Recently manufactured models will not allow downgrading...

Since this bad experience with Fronius I now advise my customers to choose SMA.

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spatula Oliver commented · Jul 26, 2023 at 03:18 PM

Thanks for all those who helped me get this far, but it appears as if you are correct Oliver. I get ERROR STATE 743 when trying to install the fro32070.upd from a USB :-( I presume that's what you were refering to: "Recently manufactured models will not allow downgrading.."

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Answer 38 · 2023-07-24T20:39:33Z

Rob Duthie answered · Jul 24, 2023 at 08:39 PM

Hi

Interesting Fronuis, they dont advise us down here in NZ about that one.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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Answer 39 · 2023-07-29T16:32:01Z

spatula answered · Jul 29, 2023 at 04:32 PM

Success!!!

The Installer gave me a Fronius (2years old) from his home installation to use to test in my installation. We installed that yesterday morning and we have now had two sunsets and one sunrise to test it thouroughly. The firmware version on it is 0.3.14.8. It works like a dream!

The next step is to get my inverter back to the Fronius distributer / agent to see if they can downgrade it from 0.3.28.0 to 0.3.14.8 or find a problem in the hardware.

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Rob Duthie commented · Jul 29, 2023 at 11:21 PM

Dont update firmware if asked to!!! Until Fronius get the firmware sorted and confimed that is it is a fix or not.

I have tried there updated firmware with no luck to date.

Regards

Rob D

NZ

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spatula Rob Duthie commented · yesterday

FINALLY after getting my Fronious inverter back, and then Fronius working on it remotely, the flickering problem was fixed this week. I'm pleased to report that my installer is very tenacious and did not give up. I've asked for more details and I quote my installer "they have said it's a patch and not necessarily a stand alone firmware package, they will be integrating into their firmware in the future. I will ask for clarity."

I hope that knowing that Fronious have a solution will help anyone with getting this 'fix'.

Regards

Spatula

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