230V without neutral in Belgium

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question

fonnie asked Jul 29, '19

230V without neutral in Belgium

In Belgium we still have an electrical grid monophase (only 2 cables coming in) without neutral. I think Norway uses this system too.

It is originating from 3 phase 3 x 230V Delta configuration, from which L1 and L2 are coming to the my meterbox. I imagine my neighbours will be on L2-L3 and L1-L3 to divide the grid load.

there is NO neutral wire.

Which Victron system could be used to provide ESS functionallity? I already have a grid-tied solarinstallation, and would like to expand with ESS capabilities.

all help is greatly appriciated

best regards

Stefaan De Ridder

ESS Help

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Kristof G. commented · Jul 29, 2019 at 05:26 PM

Ahoi there,

Here i use a quattro 48/8000 on one fase ( L1-L2 ) , i have L1-L2-L3 without N ( 3x230 like we call it here in belgium)

I dont know how it can work with 3 quattros, i only have one on my koi pond and that is only using "1 line of the 3 lines".

To make it short..the systems runs good here..

Grtz kristof

Edit,

you can pm me in dutch if you want, i have quattro, grid inverters and grid inverter on output, dc mppts,.. maybe if not far from me..you can have a look here how its done

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fonnie Kristof G. commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 06:19 AM

how did you connect the Quattro, if it switches, does it not pull the Line 1 or 2 to the ground? did you remove or bypass the GND relay.

i'm interested to pay a visit, if not too far away, I'm living in Tildonk, near Haacht and Leuven

Best regards

Stefaan

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Modifications Space

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Answer 1 · 2019-07-29T15:57:48Z

nigelfxs answered · Jul 29, 2019 at 03:57 PM

Hi Stefaan

This type of grid connection would be very unusual - since the voltage between phases would then be 320 Vac.

I think you will be able to verify your grid supply configuration by measuring the AC voltage between the two incoming grid connections (it will be either 230Vac or 320Vac) as well as each line and local ground.

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wkirby ♦♦ commented · Jul 29, 2019 at 04:31 PM

These kind of supplies are actually 230V Line to Line. I don't know if it is a Delta or 127V Wye configuration, it depends upon the region.
It could also be a corner phase delta configuration where L1 is referenced to ground. Customers on L1-L2 or L1-L3 have a ground reference. The third customer who gets L2-L3 does not have a ground reference.

Thank goodness that there are less and less of these systems now.

Sorry, this does not answer the original question to which I don't know the answer, I'm not sure if the community is the right place to offer such advice.
The GND relay can be (must be) disabled if this sort of information is useful to your local electrician.

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fonnie wkirby ♦♦ commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 06:21 AM

230V without Neutral is still common in Belgium. 230V between L1 and L2, 115V between Line and Ground. Is disabling the GND relay an easy task?

best regards

Stefaan

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wkirby ♦♦ fonnie commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 07:14 AM

You can disable the ground relay in VE.Configure.

I should add that despite disabling the ground relay, ESS still won't work because a grid test will fail and the Multi / Quattro will not connect to mains.

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Kristof G. wkirby ♦♦ commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 08:10 AM

Wkirby, thats wierd

Here i disabled the grond relay and i can feedin to grid..everything is working ( i tested even with the relay enabled and still working)

Not that it mathers ,but i have an anti island infront of everything.

Edit :

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fonnie wkirby ♦♦ commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 08:20 AM

You state" I should add that despite disabling the ground relay, ESS still won't work because a grid test will fail and the Multi / Quattro will not connect to mains."

Why is that?

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wkirby ♦♦ fonnie commented · Jul 30, 2019 at 08:50 AM

The test would fail to detect a neutral-earth bond upstream.
I don't think the older MultiPlus / Quattro's perform this test though, so maybe that's why some people are demonstrating it working.

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blackstar wkirby ♦♦ commented · May 18, 2022 at 09:29 AM

Hi, I'm planning to install in the same situation a multiplus-II GX.

Power input is 230 with no neutral (that is still distributed in some areas in Italy, like Belgium).

How I can control grid test to avoid troubles?

Do I need an insulation transformer to have a neutral?

Thanks!

D.

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Answer 2 · 2019-08-01T11:31:50Z

fonnie answered · Aug 01, 2019 at 11:31 AM

@Kristof: is your Quattro a recent version? and what kind of anti-island are you using. do you have a schematic of your system (wiring diagram) en waar woon je? je mag me PM sturen op [personal.information removed]

@Wkirby: do you have an internal circuit diagram that clarifies the wiring of the relays for a Quattro and/or a Multiplus

best regards

Stefaan

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wkirby ♦♦ commented · Aug 01, 2019 at 01:39 PM

Yes, there are relay diagrams in the Appendix section of the manuals, which are available for all on www.victronenergy.com

Here is an example for the Quattro:

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual-Quattro-3k-50-50A-230V-(firmware-xxxx4xx)-EN-NL-FR-DE-ES-SE.pdf

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fonnie wkirby ♦♦ commented · Aug 01, 2019 at 01:54 PM

thanks, of course, Read the F.. Manual, did not check the annexes.

best regards

Stefaan

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Answer 3 · 2024-04-04T08:56:44Z

sharpener answered · Apr 04 at 08:56 AM

This kind of supply is quite common (and I have installed a 3-phase laser scanner in Belgium) so I am a bit surprised it is not mentioned in the manuals. AFAIR the only thing stated is that the L and N connections cannot be interchanged because the N must be at or near ground potential.

Can we have an official Victron answer on this please @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)?

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Apr 08 at 03:40 AM

Hi @sharpener,

I don't know anything official about this configuration for Belgium. We have a sales presence in Belgium though, so I would be sure if it's a common thing that they would have an explanation for it.

For regionally specific info like this, your nearest dealer will usually be the more up to date - https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy

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sharpener Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Apr 08 at 04:17 PM

Thanks for your response @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager).

I am in the UK so local distributors are I fear not likely to know the answer.

My interest stems from a long-standing professional interest in worldwide distribution systems. Also if there is a solution I would like to know how it is done.

It would seem this problem is common to Norway, Belgium (and possibly its former colonies) so spans more than one country. I am also surprised as Belgium is on Victron's doorstep so to speak that there is no official line on an approved solution - if there is one.

Maybe you could direct this enquiry to yr sales office there in case they can come up with something?

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ sharpener commented · Apr 09 at 02:46 AM

As the manufacturer we try to keep a little bit of distance between ourselves and the end-user when it comes to matters like this. There are several reasons, but just using one as an example, the local grid connection rules are constantly changing and can be extremely locally specific.

We don't recommend in any case that end users install their own MultiPlus or Quattros and connect them to the grid, all installations and commissioning must be done by a local technician.

There are training sessions held by the regional sales managers for those people who want that kind of technical training, that includes generally about how the product works, but also specifically how that behaviour applies to their market. Those trainings are happening several times a year so that the information is up to date.

If I was to get some info about that specific market, it would only be applicable now, and may shortly become incorrect or incomplete. Then that is a worse situation because I would be 'officially' wrong.

I try and be as open with what I know about Victron equipment as I can, but after so many years now I have learned to draw the line at specific regional grid interactions, rules & requirements. That advice has to come direct from someone on the ground who is doing it daily.

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Answer 4 · 2024-04-04T10:25:38Z

andreas-steinbach answered · Apr 04 at 10:25 AM

Hello, iam in norway and have the same shit here. It-net without neutral. Is it possible to connect three Multiplus paralell to the nett? How the people in the other countries with IT-Net have connectet Multipluss? I can not belive that is not possible and so many people can not use Victron?

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Alexandra ♦ commented · Apr 04 at 11:34 AM

The problem is the no neutral.

The inverters are designed to use the neutral for some safety features to work.

When inverting it bonds neutral and ground.

Contact a local distributor. Or one with a country that has your same power distribution. They possibly have the answer.

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Answer 5 · 2024-04-09T12:22:20Z

sharpener answered · Apr 09 at 12:22 PM

Have you contacted the distributor in Norway @Andreas Steinbach and what have they told you? This seems to be the only way forward!

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Answer 6 · 2024-04-09T13:24:14Z

andreas-steinbach answered · Apr 09 at 01:24 PM

@sharpener yes i've contactet them, but unfortunately without any respons from them at the moment

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Answer 7 · 2024-04-11T08:57:42Z

sharpener answered · Apr 11 at 08:57 AM

@Andreas Steinbach see also this thread https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/181701/2-x-multiplus-2-in-2-phase-ess-configuration-on-23.html?childToView=276400#answer-276400

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